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Comment by tdeck | Hacker News Reader

During the early pandemic Singapore Airlines canceled my flight and gave me a flight credit. I went in circles with them and Orbitz saying I wanted my money back, to no avail. So I filed a chargeback with Capital One. The airline responded to the dispute saying the ticket I bought was non-refundable. I replied pointing out that means it's not refundable if I cancel, not that the airline can refuse service I paid for and not refund me. I also attached a recent notice from the DoT saying that airlines must refund customers in my situation, and that the specific practice in question was illegal.

Capital One sided with the airline and closed my case. Guess you can't depend on chargebacks like I thought you could.

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> Capital One sided with the airline and closed my case. Guess you can't depend on chargebacks like I thought you could.

Yes people tend to have a slightly delusional view of how effective chargebacks can be based on limited experiences. If you're fighting with a small merchant like a local store or a non famous online merchant you're going to win basically every time.

If you're fighting with a rental car company, an airline, a hotel chain, a household name company, or similar, it's an entirely different story. The interaction has much more to do with who's more valuable to the card issuer than who's right.

That's why I (in Europe) pay with SEPA Direct Debit whenever possible. It has a legally mandated no question asked chargeback function.

(In fact it's automated and two clicks away).

Of course there are expensive consequences when that system is abused.

How does that work?

Is it more like a wire transfer, or a CC payment?

What are the expensive consequences you are talking about?

It's a type of wire transfer (in euros).

It's a pull from your bank account. You give the merchant your account details and sign* an authorization and they "pull" the money from your account. Afterward you can cancel the charge without giving a reason for a few weeks, or if the charge was unauthorized for up to 2 years. The only downside compared to chargebacks is that you are not protected in case of insolvency of the merchant.**

> What are the expensive consequences you are talking about?

The system offers no security for the merchant - in fact cancelled charges cost a fee, even if the charge was completely valid.

* yes - physical signature on paper, except when paying online

** this is a topic for a full comment on it's own, but here's the gist: Under German law you can't "take back" your money from an company that has filed for bankruptcy - in fact even payments made to you before the filing might be clawed back by the administrator - which means that you will receive (and customers from insolvent airlines have received) an angry letter demanding the money back. With chargebacks this is less likely to happen as the chargeback will be paid for by the merchant's bank, not the merchant directly, but the legal situation is unclear.

Technically it was not the airline refusing service, there was a force majeure, and many insurances have explicit exceptions for stuff like pandemics, wars, etc.

If I was tdeck, I would contact US Dept of Transportation.

There was specifically a special directive by US Dept of Transportation directing airlines to refund customers for any flights that were modified or canceled after pandemic restrictions started in Mar 2020.

https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/us-department-t...

https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/ticket-refunds

As of now, they even explicitly say non refundable tickets are refundable if airlines cancel:

https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer...

> Non-refundable tickets - Passengers who purchase non-refundable tickets are not entitled to a refund unless the airline makes a promise to provide a refund or the airline cancels a flight or makes a significant schedule change.

I am also confused how Orbitz would be involved in tdeck’s situation. Either they paid Orbitz, or they paid Singapore Airlines, but either way only one of them would be able to refund them.

In fact this is how it got resolved, I filed a complaint with some agency (I can't recall which) and SQ coincidentally changed their policy and refunded me. The very notice you linked is the one I sent with my chargeback.

As for Orbitz, I used them to book the ticket, and SQ's customer service told me they couldn't refund me because they had a policy that only the agent could modify the reservation. When I tried to contact Orbitz they just told me I would need to talk to the airline.

The flight (to Japan) wasn't actually banned, it just became unprofitable to run that day. But flights are a time-sensitive thing! Imagine if you ordered a pizza and the restaurant called you back and said it wasn't convenient that night because of car trouble, but they'd keep your money and in a few months when it made more sense they'd deliver your pizza. That's ridiculous and you'd have a right to demand your money back.

That's what the small claims court is for.

I guess you found out you can't rely on Capital One. Never had a problem with AMEX.

Yep. Some companies handled pandemic cancellations much better than others. Never forget(tm).

First time I was late paying AMEX they raised my interest rate north of 25%. They could legally do so, but they were the only card I had that did it so quickly; just one day late.

Discover was my favorite. They had a forgiveness policy and wouldn't raise your rate just because another card did. And their website was very friendly to use.

I guess that's how they make money and can afford great customer service, which is also something I'm fine with: I couldn't care less what their interest rate is since I'll never ever pay interest. If that's on the agenda, then I'd look somewhere else as you say.

Their app is blasted easy to use for payments & viewing account information as well. I despise the Chase app where my auto loan sits, as it never loads correctly on my iPhone, or takes drastically longer. Whereas the Discover app and pages load without problem.

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