Sleep technique used by Salvador Dalí works | Hacker News Reader

Sleep technique used by Salvador Dalí works

livescience.com

737 pointsohiovr238 comments

Wow. I didn’t know this, but I was actually able to observe this state on myself. When going to sleep, my mind is wandering. But at one point it drifts from real world thoughts to completely abstract concepts and wild imagination that sometimes makes no sense. It’s almost like a hallucination. What’s most interesting is that sometimes I am able to notice the transition to this state and consciously observe it. Usually it makes me happy because I know I’m about to fall asleep within the next few seconds (which I often have problem with, writing this comment at 1:26am again..). I am also able to consciously observe the images being generated. It’s very weird, because it feels like one brain looking into someone else’s brain to the extent that is impossible by any technology or in any other way. Sometimes I’m able to consciously wake up from this state, because I have weird “sleep phobias”. Sometimes I am fascinated by the idea generated at that stage. But unless I write them down or really get up, they are typically lost if I fall asleep within next 5 minutes - maybe I’d have a Nobel prize already, if only I kept a pen and paper ready next to my bed. Or apartment full of crappy kitch paintings..

Wow, I have this exact same experience before falling asleep. It feels like a direct shift in the thought processes, and as you described it, it feels as though you have become a passive observer of your own thoughts. The images are sometimes so absurd and creative that I almost laugh to myself. But I also, don't KNOW if the images are creative or absurd, but just my brain believing it so -- is there even a difference? If anyone has ever had a "genius" idea while high, written it down, and read it the next day, you know what I mean...

Just as you mentioned, this switch lets me know, I'm gonna be asleep in the next few seconds. I also often listen to audiobooks or ASMR while lying down to sleep, and just as this state kicks in, I know its time to flick out my earbuds just before I lose consciousness. However, sometimes I'm even able to ride this wave right into sleep -- as in, from weird observer state right into the dream world. I was actually thinking about this a few days ago, and did some very quick searching, but couldn't find anything -- I wonder if we are observing the switching of our own brainwaves from alpha to theta?

I'd like to ask other people that experience this: do you also have high rates of sleep paralysis? I get it almost nightly. My dreams are also very vivid, and I remember about 80% of them. Also, if I wake up during a dream, upon falling back asleep, I'm able to "continue" them. Maybe I'll try this Dali method a bit, who knows!

It feels like a direct shift in the thought processes, and as you described it, it feels as though you have become a passive observer of your own thoughts

Because it is, according to my doc. You’re looking directly at your inner thinking machinery, and moreso you can interact with it by simply asking yourself a question just before this state kicks in.

I have a little success story of using it. Previously I’ve had a fear of being late, with a heavy protective behavior, almost OCD-like. Doc wanted me to answer when and how did I get the idea that being late is so terrible. I tried hard to recall, but only simple reinforcement events came up to mind. Then he said that I should either fall asleep in that session (failed it), or repeat the question before I go to sleep at home. Just in few seconds my subconscious presented me the correct event from my childhood in full detail. One session later I was free of that fear, and now can easily plan 4-5 meetings in a row in different parts of the city, an unimaginable thing for me before.

Lucid dreamer here. I often feel the "switch" the same way you do, and I ride through it as the images transistion into the "dream world". Through this I can directly enter into a lucid dream if I choose to keep my conscious mind slightly active, else it becomes a passive dream (though sometimes I do discover that I'm dreaming and it then becomes lucid once more). I have to be cautious here though, as if I start thinking too hard I snap out of it and return to consciousness.

During this time sleep paralysis is almost always in effect. Basically I can listen and think, but there is a gate on my muscles - small motions like twitching my fingers won't work, strong motions cut through (and immediately stops the paralysis). To me it generally happens when my mind is about to switch off and I am on the verge of falling asleep.

I have this also. So many things to say I don't know where to begin. I feel like there is a distinct difference between the experiences of seeing the images when you are falling asleep vs seeing the images when you have recently come out of sleep. And then there is a third state where you have recently come out of sleep but you aren't done sleeping yet so you are also falling back to sleep. This last one often allows me to start having a lucid dream.

1) Weird things like this happen to me most often in the early morning hours when I'm still drowsy but I've woken up for a few minutes.

2) It is sometimes accompanied by a "whooshing" sensation that used to frighten me and usually caused me to "back out" into normal consciousness. Eventually I learned how to relax and let it unfold without panicking. Quite often I have the sensation of rolling out of my body, off the bed and onto the floor.

3) I am paralyzed when it happens, in the sense that if I move my hand, the hand that moves is a dream hand. My real hand of course doesn't move. It doesn't feel like paralysis because I can "move" in my dream. But I am consciously aware that my real body is lying still in bed.

4) I have to be very careful not to wake myself especially at the beginning (edit: and being careful is paradoxical because if I am too careful then that will wake me too, sort of like the paradox of needing to be both loose and tight in sports). I am also aware that if my wife coughs or makes some kind of noise, I might wake up. I have discovered an odd remedy for this however: if I make "dream noise" - for instance, if I shuffle my feet loudly in the dream - I am less likely to be woken by real noise from the real world.

> Also, if I wake up during a dream, upon falling back asleep, I'm able to "continue" them.

I have this too, i asked around and people just found it weird.

Most also don't remember their dream, but i can remember the last one for about 10 minutes before it fogs away.

If i want to continue it. I need to remember the last thing that happened and the first moments i can control what's going to happen until something else takes over. It's the only reason I would go back to sleep again, if the dream was really "nice".

I also think I can control a dream and I mostly realize that I'm dreaming. Then I think about: "hey, this is really weird what's happening here, I'll wake up now. Since this is just a dream. It can't be real."

There's also one time I totally didn't realize it at all. And something embarrassing happened. But I drank alcohol the night before and it must have been related to that.

Sometimes people say they can have conversations with me, while I definitely was sleeping. You could ask any question than and I'd answer ( even the kind that you shouldn't ask)

( Didn't read the article yet)

I'm kinda jealous. I couldn't be more different.

I can't remember the last time I had a dream. Months ago probably.

Random question but - do you consume any caffeine?

I, too, rarely have (or remember) dreams – once per month, maybe. But lack of dreams is not a problem for me. What I find annoying (and I'm really curious if you have similar experience) that I don't have feeling of passed time.

My sleep is like blink of an eye. It's night, I close my eyes, then I open them, and there is morning already. I's always the same, no matter how long I have slept, whether I am well rested or tired.

Since the time feels so compressed during my sleep, I can't help but feel that sleep is, kinda, a waste of time.

Usually I have 2-3 coffees per week. I drink a lot of various types of tea daily, though.

Hmm.. I don't really have this problem. When I wake up, I definitely feel like time has passed, but I wonder if it's for different reasons than you're expecting.

For me, I usually will wake up once in the night, and fall back to sleep quickly. This adds to a sense of time. Also, waking up in the morning it's distinctly more cold, I feel distinctly more groggy, etc. I definitely get a sense that time has passed...

But if you're asking if I am ever aware that I'm sleeping and conscious of the minutes passing by? No, never. I fall asleep, time passes, I wake up (but, unlike you, I do feel like time passed...)

You dont even have slight hallucinations while falling to sleep, just like in the linked article? My first sign is I usually start hearing voices which I almost always know are not real.

I think I had them when I was kid, but not anymore.

And just to be clear, I didn't mean that I fall asleep as soon I close my eyes. It's just that there is no "transition" between being conscious and sleeping. And then, suddenly, I'm awake.

I have that idea that my mind suppresses the memories of dreaming and falling asleep, because when I was a kid I had two recurring nightmares that I dreamed of almost every night. Still, never did proper research on this topic.

edit: typo

So if you try to stay awake like Dali you will only skip time intervals without seeing anything? That's interesting. If I am too sleepy but still awake I even start hearing sounds and start seeing vivid images in my head with open eyes.

I'm with you, I fall asleep to blackness and it's instantly morning. When my kids were babies and we were getting up a lot in the night to feed and change diapers I actually had an uptick in awareness of my dreams, but otherwise it is extremely rare for me to be conscious of anything during the night.

I’ve helped a half dozen people with this. One trick is to just keep a notepad by your bed and first, first, first thing try to write down what you remember from your dreams.

My suspicion is eventually the brain says “oh you care about this? Okay cool I’ll hold on to them for longer.”

Give it a couple of weeks you might be surprised.

Thanks for the tip, I'll give this a try.

I consume lotsa caffeine and still have weird, vivid dreams that I remember in the morning. I'd say in my case the caffeine doesn't inhibit any dream capability. I also have small fragments of lucid dreaming, but usually wake up quickly then (because of the excitement mostly).

Ditto on "lotsa". To the point caffeine no longer amps me up but rather just keeps the migraines at bay. Pondering my addiction many years in the past, I decided to try an experiment where I drank a few sips of coffee before going to sleep. It did, and still does, increase my lucidity & retention during/after sleep cycles. I have vivid dreams with self awareness pretty much most nights, and a experience a surprisingly large amount of content during power naps(15-45 minutes). This is still a drop in the bucket compared to my dreams when I was a teen & 20-something, however. I haven't been able to 'fly away' or soar like I did when younger, nowadays I merely wake-up when things start down a dark path(*Covid induced nightmares, were a rare exception; the 1st night terrors I've had in decades).

edit:grammar

I don't drink caffeine and I rarely dream, just to chime in. When I dream it's almost always because something is disturbing my sleep. An upset stomach is the most common cause of dreams to me.

Or quitting cannabis, in which case I have vivid and wild dreams for a couple weeks and then back to normal.

Hypersensitive to caffeine, so no coffee or pop if I don't mind the incoming insomnia. I may have a cup of weak earl grey every couple of days.

If you don’t mind mild side effects and you do want dreams, there’s always the Calea herb: https://www.healthline.com/health/calea-zacatechichi

I’m the same way. I pretty much never have dreams unless I take some supplement like melatonin or valerian and even then it’s hit or miss. While I’m awake I also can’t picture things clearly(without any meaningful details) in my mind. Maybe that’s related.

You likely have dreams, just don’t remember them.

What I can definitely remember is that before I started being conscious about this transition I started waking up with "mental" shock, like the absolute last part part of sleep were cut of prematurely and you are shunted straight into consciousness, it wasn't physical shock, I might have twitched a bit but it's kind of hard to be sure about it.

Then these shocks also started happening before sleep, before entering or inside this N1 state, basically I would "hard on" consciously notice I am drifting which kind of catapulted me back into full consciousness. Though, it wasn't hard to start slipping back into sleep unless nervous for next day stuff.

I am not a lucid dreamer, I think I experienced that once but it was very ...murky, like a typical dream afterwards. Same for sleep paralysis, happened few times but it's rare and as far as I remember, it wasn't fear inducing.

Also, needs to be noted that my "sleep organization" is pretty fucked up and I often end up sleeping less hours then I would normally need, for days, refilling the deficit thru weekends.

>do you also have high rates of sleep paralysis?

Yes, often toward the end of this near-dreaming state, just before entering deeper sleep. I experience a sensation like entering a free fall and lose the ability to move. It takes quite a lot of energy to climb back out of it and regain the ability to move.

A similar experience occurs with me almost always when jet lagged. After fighting off sleep for much of the day when I finally fall asleep during the later part of the day, it starts off exactly like described - a really dreamy state. Then after I have slept a couple of hours, I enter a state where I am sleeping and also awake at the same time and wanting to wake up but in a state of sleep paralysis where it is a herculean effort to try and shake off sleep and wake up. More often than not, even though I know I am in this state, still a panic sets in me that I am not able to shake off sleep and I wake up after quite some effort. And yes, I have had dreams where I have been able to solve some problems at work even without thinking about them during the day. Its totally fascinating!

How would you describe your sleep hygiene? Do you sleep the same amount every night? Do you fall asleep at the same time? How much sleep do you get? Are you generally very tired when you lay down to sleep?

Just curious as someone who has never had any of these N1 experiences, what might I be missing...

I used to have fairly poor sleep hygiene but am now pretty good about it. I have had this experience in both states. I had night terrors as a child which eventually gave way to curiosity, and I practiced staying self aware while falling asleep. A common trick you can use is to learn to recognize the signs that you are sleeping, for example by checking your phone. Digital screens will have garbled symbols in a dream. You also might notice altered laws of physics, or suddenly remember that you already went to bed and the dream can't be real. After the first few times, your brain learns how to do it and it happens more and more without effort. Then you can stay self aware while falling asleep, and can start to explore the transition states that you otherwise couldn't see.

Something like this happens to me too.

> The images are sometimes so absurd and creative that I almost laugh to myself.

For me the images and thoughts are absurd but in a terrifying way. I usually wake up when this happens. I analyze the thoughts and images after waking up and they make absolutely no sense, yet in my sleep they make me very very afraid/upset, disturbing enough to make me get up terrified. I have anxiety disorder, and that's most certainly causing me to feel this way.

I also get voices speaking random gibberish that gets progressively louder which forces me to get up from my sleep. After getting up I'm usually like 'wtf was that' and go back to sleep.

Richard Feynman wrote about something similar in “Surely you’re joking Mr. Feynman!” (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surely_You%27re_Joking,_Mr._...!)

This appears to be most of the relevant except: http://entersection.com/posts/897-richard-p-feynman-on-watch...

Something that happened a few times to me during this transitional state is “hearing” (more like hallucinating) music that I was singing in my mind while still awake. Except much clearer and vivid than ever before. I think that since the ordinary hearing function was just shutting itself off, the conscious brain could experience only its memory of the song and did it intensely so.

It lasted a couple of seconds only, while I was extremely tired, but it was an amazing experience.

It’s such a fascinating topic and yet it’s remarkable how little we still know about sleep, consciousness, dreams, etc.

I get this too. While awake, the sounds I hear on my own mind are just basically the signs I could make with my own voice. I can imagine a song by imagining humming or singing it, but I cannot recall what the actual recording sounds like. Yet there's that switch that flips as I go to sleep that I notice occasionally where I can hear crystal clear music. It's beautiful and I can't recognize the music.

I also get this, much more rarely, with images. While awake, I can't truly picture what I imagine, it's like I just have a notion of what is there, like motion and shape, without really seeing it, or at best a momentary flash of a picture. But when drifting to sleep there is a moment where the images become real, with color and texture and detail far beyond what I can imagine while awake. It's shocking and wakes we up when I notice it happening.

What is this switch? How can my brain have such discretely distinct modes of operation? Falling asleep itself seems so much more of a continuum.

A similar thing happened to me after some sleep deprivation in a noisy bar. I was moving to the music, and someone said the music had stopped. I listened while still moving to it, saying no it hasn't. They repeated that it had. I listened again and indeed there was no music in the air, only my mind. Cognition and perception is based on hallucination around stimuli--sometimes we fill in more than the gaps.

I've had this a few times. It's like listening to a good album on your headphones, except you are in control of the music. Being able to do that was a wonderful experience, especially since I've never actually played an instrument.

If you try to sleep with your eyes partially closed, you’ll start to hallucinate the things in front of you. Things become shapes, and then completely different things. It’s pretty interesting.

Something similar happens only when sitting on the couch and watching something on the TV.

If i am tired enough, then i can fall asleep, but am somehow also able to hear myself snoring.

Dreams do not happen in this state.

I recognize this exact moment, because it occurs precisely prior to when I begin snoring, and my wife will sometimes nudge me awake. The best I can describe it in concrete terms is that the world stretches before me and my mind bounces around for a moment.

Yeah I call it being aware of ones thought process in third person. It's not that unusual of an angle of perception, the first place I ever saw it "documented" was here:

https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/Perceived_exposure_to_inner_...

which leads to a very accurate description of that kind of visualizations:

https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/8B_Geometry_-_Perceived_expo...

I get this too! And they are hallucinations - hypnogogic hallucinations. It starts out for me in thought but then blossoms into something that feels very real.

Apparently it’s a normal phenomenon, I’ve noticed it’s more pronounced in those who struggle to get off to sleep.

Usually, when I try to explain it, it comes out as nonsense that makes complete sense to me. But once I’m awake, the sense is lost and it makes zero sense.

But it’s not always nonsense. Once I heard the most beautiful orchestra. The composition, the performance, it was truly beautiful. I can’t remember anything about it other than it was the most beautiful piece of music I’ve ever heard.

Coming in at a close second was an incredible guitar solo. It was a deep, emotional ballad expressed entirely on the fret board of an electric guitar. Again, truly beautiful. I look but I can never find anything that matches it. The closest I’ve come are some live performances of Buckethead.

It’s sad that I haven’t the ability to reproduce these experiences.

For the nonsense stuff, I’ve heard voices talking amongst themselves next to my bed. Sounds like they’re speaking English but what they say makes zero sense. Like grammatically correct sentences that mean nothing.

I’ve also watched pigs doing cartwheels while on a guided tour of a suburban neighbourhood.

I’ve never had the self-control to break it and note things down (by that point, I usually just want the sleep) but I have tried to apply ideas from behaviourism. And funnily enough it seemed to help.

On nights that are a particular struggle, I’ll let my mind wander and inject the odd bizarre, abstract thought, audio or visual in my minds eye. What I’ve noticed is that I seem to “catch the drift” and it triggers the whole hypnogogia thing that leads to sleep.

Some nights it doesn’t work but on those nights I’m far too tightly wound.

This kind happens to me too, except frequently when I'm transitioning I see a really bright like that comes from "above" (hard to describe which direction) and it wakes me back up because it's intensity. Though no one I talk to seems to know what I'm talking about. But the vividness before becoming unconscious (or the white light) is often the most creative part of my day. Sometimes I can take control but often this breaks the effect.

Though the best way I learned to remember dreams and having some control is not when falling asleep but waking up. Rather set an alarm one or two REM cycles before you want to get up (cycle is 90 minutes) and then just go back to bed. It's far more vivid than when trying to go to sleep and easier to take some control (though I've only become lucid twice). At minimum you'll remember your dream.

Some buddhist sleep meditations are often called clear light meditations.

For them btw is not the trick to remember the thoughts but to stay aware when transitioning to the sleep phase, this is one of the moments clear conciousness can be experienced according to certain teachings.

>maybe I’d have a Nobel prize already, if only I kept a pen and paper ready next to my bed

Far more likely it would be "The banana is great, but the skin is greater"[0] :)

0. https://www.google.com/books/edition/Where_China_Meets_India...

IIRC this is the "hypnopompic" state and yeah, it's weird and cool. Personally I have more memories at the other end ("hypnogogic"?) on the transition to waking up.

Me too,

I used to be able do this in the morning for what felt like hours in a extremely vivid dream like state

It's how I got into self-hypnosis to help with my exams

When I’m falling asleep, I worry about things from the day — then my mind starts mixing everything up at some point.

Lying in bed, I vividly remember studying for a test on human anatomy, going over everything in my head. After five or so minutes, I felt pretty confident with my knowledge of human anatomy and I started panicking about my lack of knowledge of car anatomy (which doesn’t exist).

Strange enough, I can always tell my thoughts are jumbled up but I can’t fix them.

I hadn’t considered it was due to the shift into sleep — I always thought I was just too tired to keep making sense.

I used to be able to do this thing to where if I kept perfectly still, I'd "stare" (with eyes closed) into the nothingness---by that I mean I'd be staring into the backs of my eyelids---and there'd be a point in which my mind would start to create images. For instance, the shape would take the form of a fish, and then I'd see it become a radio, etc.

If I held on and tried this for as long as possible, I'd feel my body drift off to sleep. But it was hard, because there'd be something in me that would jerk and stop the imagery (like a hypnic jerk, just nowhere near as uncomfortable).

There was a bizarre situation where one evening I felt my body convulse (or perhaps I imagined it) and I'd actually fallen asleep. However, I was so freaked out by it that I shook my body awake, in my dream, and I woke up. I must've been out for less than a minute or so.

It's been 7-8 months since I was last able to stare into the nothingness and let sleep overtake me. Maybe it's my caffeine intake or something else, but I would like to experience it again.

Edit: I'm pretty sure they were hypnagogic hallucinations. https://www.sleepfoundation.org/how-sleep-works/hypnagogic-h...

> I used to be able to do this thing to where if I kept perfectly still, I'd "stare" (with eyes closed) into the nothingness---by that I mean I'd be staring into the backs of my eyelids---and there'd be a point in which my mind would start to create images. For instance, the shape would take the form of a fish, and then I'd see it become a radio, etc.

> If I held on and tried this for as long as possible, I'd feel my body drift off to sleep. But it was hard, because there'd be something in me that would jerk and stop the imagery (like a hypnic jerk, just nowhere near as uncomfortable).

I do the same thing, though the more mental effort put into creating the images makes it take longer before I'm able to fall asleep. There's a sweet spot of putting the smallest mental effort to go to sleep quickly.

I usually use it as a crutch when I can't just let my mind drift.

I've lately noticed this too but, my "N1" mostly looks more like... I am generating sounds - melodies, songs, talking people and it feels like I am indeed listening to it, not like the dreamy feeling that there just is a sound.

Visually it's mixed up with "blank images" in that sense that I know there is something happening but I can't grasp it. It's like watching very fast recording - you know something is there but either it's too fast to catch or you are too slow to grasp the meaning (if there even is any).

What's weird is that these background songs actually do make sense, well at least in my head (heh) and these are not copies or mixes of anything I can remember.

I am mainly a electronic music junkie: DnB, techno, drumstep but from time to time I, mainly dictated by my emotions, listen to instrumental rock, indie metal and alike (BMTH, I Prevail, Royal Blood). But in contrast, all the songs in my head are instrumental, often being "lyrics first" which is pretty much out of my typical range - I like to fill in the words, feelings - some meaning into the beats myself, that is why I listen to progressive electro stuff with not much lyrics if any.

I am guy with absolutely basic music theory and zero exposure to anything like music composition (okey I sometimes dream (like in wish) that I would learn piano or bass).

> When going to sleep, my mind is wandering. But at one point it drifts from real world thoughts to completely abstract concepts and wild imagination that sometimes makes no sense. It’s almost like a hallucination.

I can trigger this in myself consistently. Usually, it's either by pushing myself to stay awake for too long on too little sleep or waking up after a full days work and only sleeping a few (2-4) hours.

I try not to, I find it terrifying tbh.

Apparently people with untreated narcolepsy (who naturally go in-and-out of that zone automatically on a nightly basis) tend to have "higher creative potential" than people without narcolepsy[0].

[0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31143939/

The nonsense thoughts sound very familiar. It takes me forever to fall asleep, so I have plenty of time to observe it happening. I go from actively worrying about/solving stuff, to slight relaxation with my inner voice being a bit less active, to an even more "nonverbal thinking", then finally I'll have some thoughts that seem to make sense at first, but a few seconds later I realize were actually nonsense, which makes me happy as I know sleep almost surely follows from there within 5 minutes.

One thing I didn't see mentioned here is that sometimes it seems like some of the thoughts didn't originate from me, like someone else is present or said it. I assume when I'm deeper into sleep, the same process is responsible for creating all the other characters besides myself in my dreams.

My problem is that when I start observing my ”N1”, as I do when I’m in a cycle of low/bad sleep, I get worried I won’t reach deep recovery sleep. This really have become a bad pattern for me that is hard to break. I can spend a full night in and out of N1 sleep and be completely wasted the following day.

I seem to go through these cycles with 3-4 weeks of great sleep and roughly 2 weeks of getting stuck in N1, observing.

Really interesting things show up while in this state, but it’s thoroughly incompatible with three young children…

> Sometimes I am fascinated by the idea generated at that stage.

Same here. In periods of my life when I'm more into artistic creation (or even consumption), often quite vivid and elaborate images come to my head in the 10-15 minutes before going to sleep. That, or really rich and elaborate (original) music. Unfortunately, I don't have the skills to put them into paintings or compositions, or even to make a quick note of them so that I could remember them in the morning. But still, it's quite fun.

Thank you for posting this! I experience almost the same feeling of my thought processes abruptly changing in form as I'm falling asleep. The few people I've talked to about this couldn't relate so I thought it was something specific to myself.

You just described exactly what happens to me and that "sleep phobia", I read somewhere, is linked usually to people with anxiety/panic attack issues. Not sure if that's your case but 100% accurate in my case.

Yes, same here, unfortunately

Actually I don't feel it anymore since I started to practice deep breath before I close my eyes. It improved my sleep a lot.

I've always had insomnia, and I often observe myself entering the N1 state of sleep. Like you, it makes me happy because it's how I know I'll soon be asleep. immediately.

the state you describe i only, but then very clearly, experience when falling asleep while being stoned.

Do you also have the visualizations of interlinked concepts? I find weed makes me have "the thoughts" and they are very present and come fast, but being absolutely sober sometimes those thoughts are there but not moving as fast and they it's more likely they also come with visualizations of the thought process.

I’m not sure if everyone is like this but, in my case, cannabis and psychedelic use has really ramped up that type of mental imagery. I see it without being able to describe how it looks, which is odd. The components usually comprise of blocks of logical arguments and the intersection of event spaces.

Another observation: dualistic thinking is a token side-effect of psychedelic use, but I’d go so far as to say I’ve also decoupled cause and effect in many of the abstract phenomena I observe. Whatever I’m observing or contemplating appears to be a condition or state with no time domain, rather than an operation where A causes B in that order.

Dualistic thinking is so pervasive in the US that I think it's far fetched to say it's a token side-effect, as much as saying never speaking another language that is not English in your life if a token side-effect of psychedelic use... like the correlation is so big if you do self reported studies just in the US that it will be hard to deal with it.

Probably what's going on is that people just become more aware of dualistic thinking because of the extra open-mindedness or increase in empathy that forces one to somehow deal more with that "other side" that they are definitely "not a part of".

Interesting. I heard very similar description of similar state from people using LSD. I never tried LSD, so would be curious whether that indeed triggers the same state. I personally never felt any effect of weed, so I’m not really inclined to try “harder”.

This definitely relates to the exchange of signals between hemispheres

Hope you fell asleep!

Anecdote: I distinctly remember being on the edge of sleep writing a song one night in 2019. I was about to fall asleep on the floor with a notebook in my hand, and just at that moment, the music came into my mind. For whatever reason, I was able to stay awake and flesh it out as a recording. After reflecting on it the next day I realised I had written an acoustic fingerstyle piece that moved across keys as if there were multiple voicings in the accompaniment all moving independently in polyphony. Far more harmonically complex than anything I had written before, or since.

Three weeks later my partner and I played it for the first time in a pub, and the normally cosy and laugh-filled room fell silent. We had the exact same experience in another open mic night a couple of weeks afterwards, where we took the first-place prize before the competition even finished. It was as if people were moved by it without any effort or coercion, like we cast a spell over people.

Now it makes sense! I’ve heard music play in my mind as I’ve fallen asleep before; this news explains this story almost perfectly. Unreal. Live on the edge of sleep and magic can happen. I wonder what health risks there are with prolonged use?

Do you have a recording of the song online?

You story reminds me of a video by Jack Conte and his wife about their experience with lucid dreaming. They talk about how he wrote a song while dreaming. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yti4yYZqtMo

I love music and I’ve attempted music making at various points in my life, but I’m just not great at it. I don’t have the imagination to plan and layer out the interesting bits that make a good song. But my near-sleeping mind is totally able to do that. And this is at least a semi-conscious process, where I’m able to direct the music as it’s being “played” in my mind. As I said, I’m very much an amateur, so I wouldn’t describe it as genius, but it’s still much better than anything I can create awake.

I’ve also noticed that this translates into other areas as well, like architecture or languages - I can hear a very convincingly sounding sentence in a language I’m familiar with just well enough to know that it was gibberish.

Yes, I've had this exact experience. I only wish I had the skill to transcribe what played in my head while I was in this state.

That reminds me of this quote from Dick Dale, "I still remember the first night we played it ('Misirlou'). I changed the tempo, and just started cranking on that mother. And ... it was eerie. The people came rising up off the floor, and they were chanting and stomping."

It seems like people really are susceptible to a sort of mass hypnosis if you can make the right noises.

To everyone asking for a recording: I appreciate the curiosity, but we were very much a live act.

But I hope my little story encourages you to pursue the arts, and nurture them in your local area. Your local live music scene needs your support, so we can see serendipities like this appear :)

You must know of the "Trillo del Diavolo" from Giuseppe Tartini (first half XVIII century).

(He asked the devil in a dream to play something for him, and the very pale imitation is the Sonata per violino in sol minore he wrote from memory once wake.)

Of course, also Kubla Khan from Coleridge comes to mind.

I'm pretty sure there's some sort of internet rule where you have to share a link to this music if you make such an interesting post!

Unfortunately that same rule also stipulates that at each stage of the musical work being rendered to a digital medium, transferred to an unknown location, then played back using unknown equipment, a portion of the magic is irrecoverably lost.

I dunno, I'd rather have heard that really awful recording of the last living castrati than never have heard it, for instance.

Then again I listen to 1940s radio programs while driving, so I might be biased.

Can you share this piece? I want to hear it now.

Perhaps this is the why so many of the 60's and 70's psychedelic rock songs are so enchanting and beautiful. They were under the influence of psychedelic drugs which may induce this state while awake.

I did the same thing and no one would probably believe it except I recorded it as a MIDI stream. The next day I played it to my boss and he wouldn't accept that I composed it. (edit - it was a complex classical piano piece)

Can we have a link?

I wish I still had it but it was on a 3.5 inch floppy that was misplaced in the chaos of time.

I read that The XX would intentionally stay up until the wee hours of the morning, and would only start recording once they begun to nod off. Their music sounds so nocturnal and dreamy that I'm sure it must be true.

I'm also interested in hearing your music especially since it came from a lucid state.

The people wants the link. so you better deliver.

Wow what a story!

Is this available anywhere?

Can you share this?

I think I once got into this hypnagogic state by accident. I was having a nap and my dogs woke me up because it was time for their walk.

I felt sleepy while walking the dogs but also had a clarity regarding anything I examined in my mind. It's as if my regular state of mind was like walking in a forest with limited visibility, and now I could see the territory from a bird's perspective.

This lasted for about 15 mins maybe. I've never been able to experience this again. Maybe I should try this technique :)

I experienced such states on several occasions, usually randomly once every two or three years. I resolved to explore it if it happened again, and sure enough I was ready when it did.

I soon discovered you don't have to wait years; it can happen a few times a week.

Simple technique: - wait until you've woken up after a dream. (so technically hypnopompic, not hypnagogic, but more powerful imho) - Any dream will do, but be careful not to drift back into normal consciousness (so don't think of work, taxes, todo's, etc) - instead, imagine something fanciful. Like swinging at a baseball in dodger stadium in slow-motion, or, my favorite, imagining you have the worlds smallest record player between your fingers & playing a song you like (funk music is good for this) - stay with the humorous feeling, let it grow awhile - after a minute or two, you should find the dream state has stabilized - once it's stable, and only then, call up a problem or life situation you'd like insight into, or just explore the landscape (what's behind that circus tent?) - try not to get too intellectual or willful, it can dispel the state

NB: no drugs required. But caffeine in the evening can increase the odds of waking after dreaming.

This is essentially lucid dream induction. Lucid dreaming is when you become conscious that you're dreaming while dreaming... and once you are consciously dreaming you can direct the dream actively rather than experiencing it passively. This can happen spontaneously during sleep, or it can be induced with techniques such as what you're describing.

I feel it sometimes when I think about holding the mouse, it feels like my teeth are extremely large and my hands are crazy tiny heaving the mouse along.

your thing on smallest record players between fingers really described that feeling for me, very cool.

What worked for me years ago was writing down my dreams. After a while I got really good at recalling them and even lucid dreaming at times. It was really cool, but I was single. Now I wouldn't want to wake my wife.

I used to do that and I had to stop because my recall of the dreams was so detailed that it took me an hour to write it all down in the morning. The details were too vivid to gloss over or not write down, and eventually I wanted that hour back so I stopped writing the dreams down. It was very cool while I was doing it though.

You could have taken voice notes instead. Must have saved lots of time.

I wonder if other changes, not just sleep, but quick changes to environment can create this effect as well.

Your description regarding the feeling you had walking your dogs is very similar to something which happened to me once just as I was leaving work, as I was walking out of my office.

As I walked out the door, everything felt very crisp, my mind felt lighter, and it was as if my senses were working at 200%. At that time I believe I experienced that same "clarity regarding anything I examined in my mind" you described. I thought about several things and knew in that moment exactly what needed to be done in each of them, with what felt like more than absolute certainty. It only lasted a few minutes, and had left by the time I returned home.

It's never happened again. When I think back on that day, I can almost feel it, like I'm grasping at that sense of clarity, but it always remains out of reach.

I had a very similar experience walking out of a movie theater after watching a particularly good movie this year. I walked around the main street in my town and it saw it from completely new eyes, and was able to appreciate everything about it without any prior opinions or memories about all the restaurants and shops on the block. It was surreal.

I also was able to, just like you said, become aware of a couple of large life problems that I had been unconsciously ignoring, and felt such a serene sense of "absolute certainty" about what I wanted to do about them

If I could just have that state 3-4 times a year! It was genuinely magical

> I thought about several things and knew in that moment exactly what needed to be done in each of them, with what felt like more than absolute certainty.

Exactly!

I enter such state quite often, as a result of a pattern I used to enter lucid dreams when younger I can recognize and voluntarily drift into 'aware naps' - apparently based on wife feedback I can do everything from chores to rocking my daughter bed but speech patterns are garbled, even if internally I hear the conversation and interiorly think coherent answers. She just has to wake me and I can immediately and accurately answer.

People would think narcolepsy or sleepwalking, but it's voluntary, I keep memories, and keep doing whatever I need to be doing.

I guarantee that someone out there can recommend a substance which achieves that effect

Half a tab of LSD can get you there and keep you there for hours.

BRB, trying.

Weed could do it. Other things too, but weed is always a good first stop for nice mind effects.

Honestly, I've experimented a lot with mind altering substances and that was something quite different.

And then a dozen others will jump in saying that regardless of the actual authenticity of the experience it doesn't count if you did it by directly altering brain chemistry rather than indirectly altering brain chemistry.

Meditation, if you don't overdo it (namely no longer than 30 minutes) has the same effect.

I was into meditation for years and only once doing Zazen I remember experimenting something similar.

It's certainly possible I was doing it wrong though, but even in one of those 12 day silent Vipassana retreats I never got that kind of clarity.

I'm definitely not qualified to claim what's the right and wrong way of doing it but I've never dedicated even a single day solely on meditation in my life.

Usually I was kind of like "phew, I feel tired and stressed, time to lay down with eyes closed for a bit", and it all evolved naturally from there (similarly to the so-called power naps of 30 minutes).

So at least the key for my success in mediation was to treat it like a damage mitigation technique and nothing else. And for me that works very well.

Modern day version of the technique is the phone falling in your face.

not before misclicking a few likes or ads

Or sending out a tweet about covfefe.

Or finally agreeing to the new Whatsapp terms of privacy.

I had never heard of covfefe before, that's a funny read on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covfefe). Thanks for that one.

"As legend goes, Edison would sit in a chair when he got sleepy, holding a ball bearing in his left hand. Soon, he would enter the “hypnagogic state,” a stage between wakefulness and sleep where many people claim to have visual and auditory hallucinations."

https://cityftmyers.com/1871/Standing-Thomas-Edison#:~:text=....

This technique should work if you can fall asleep without consciously thinking about what is in your hand. I have taken naps at 3pm now and then when I'm exhausted from studying a problem and fall asleep. Recently in a nap dream I come to a part that seemed to beg my belief even while dreaming. And I was somehow able to arise out of my dream state with conscious effort. I should note that I have been quite productive with the problem I was considering. I can't remember what the problem was. I just saw the article and thought it would be fun to share.

Edison's technique should be automatic. Maybe something like a soft object that when a few moments after it is released makes a squeak sound. Might make a fun toy for inventors looking to maximize on this dream boost effect.

There was some work making a version of Edison's technique that actually uses sleep stage data to decide when to trigger the wake up signal: https://www.media.mit.edu/projects/sleep-creativity/overview...

One of my friends volunteered for an experiment with this a few years back and said it was pretty trippy. Not sure how the project has progressed since then though.

The hypnagogic state sucks. I used to often wake from nightmares during the night and see hundreds of spiders swarming all over my bedroom. I would stand on my bed and try to figure out how to get to the door. I injured myself a couple of times doing Bruce Lee shit trying to jump across furniture without touching the spiders. I would switch the light on and of course there are no spiders there, but my brain is so convinced by the hallucination that it has to try and reconcile the insanity and then has me looking under the bed where the spiders have surely hidden as soon as the light went on.

Then 30 seconds later my brain goes "lolol, just fucking with you, bro" and I feel really stupid.

I've had nightmares. Isn't it interesting how it is possible 'boot' into a speakative state during a dream or nightmare? Somehow we can escape those..

this recently happened to me for the first time ever and it was surreal and terrifying, except in my situation is was bedbugs, not spiders. Never had it happen before until randomly a few weeks ago when i was feeling stressed about moving into a new apartment in a new city far away. Woke up sweating and was hallucinating that my room was infested. It was horrifying.

> Recently in a nap dream I come to a part that seemed to beg my belief even while dreaming. And I was somehow able to arise out of my dream state with conscious effort.

I've had a similar experience, where discrepancies in dream raised consciousness and morphed into lucid dreaming. In time I've become better at working out dreams from reality, and decided reversed to trigger it voluntarily. To bad with age I almost stopped dreaming, it was great.

It might be extremely personal, but my best trigger was imagining walking down an infinite stair above a cloudy sky right before sleeping - imagination transitioning into dreaming as it went. I would regularly misstep and fall - either the body would twitch waking me up, or I'd be falling in the empty below, the impossibility of the situation awakening consciousness in the dream. Had to be timed right tho - too early and would have just been just me imagining things. The feeling of lucid dreaming is distinct enough to tell which is which tho, so I could just attempt it over and over until it worked or I'd miss the window and just feel asleep.

> It might be extremely personal, but my best trigger was imagining walking down an infinite stair above a cloudy sky right before sleeping - imagination transitioning into dreaming as it went.

I remember doing almost this exact thing as a child! Every night I'd fall asleep thinking of descending an infinite escalator, which existed in an empty space. Sometimes I was with other people, sometimes alone, but I found that by keeping the escalator in focus, I was able to switch into what now I realize was a lucid dream, right as I was falling asleep.

I just had this happen to me tonight. I was dreaming and then I started dreaming about mom's house. The sliding door was open and there was hurricane like wind outside. I cried out mom! I could feel the wind. It felt so real! I woke up and heard the city's warning siren say severe thunderstorm warning. Apparently it was very windy outside last night as my neighbors remarked today.

>Maybe something like a soft object that when a few moments after it is released makes a squeak sound.

Could use some kind of heat or capacitive touch sensor to detect when it's no longer in contact with your hand. Or I guess the KISS version of that would just be to use some sort of physical switch to detect when the object hits the floor. I could totally see there being a market for something like this!

I spent a bit of time trying to do it with flex sensors. Strap one to your hand, make a fist, take your nap, detect when muscle tone is lost and it unbends. I ran out of interest before I got it to work but I still think it's viable. Probably smart to build the flex sensor into a glove for ease of use, and you could put the microcontroller on there too.

https://core-electronics.com.au/flex-sensor-2-2.html

You could also buy one of those two-piece door sensors that sound an alarm when you separate them. Tie one to your hand (or glue it onto a special sleeping glove), and hold the other piece.

Only potential problem is that you might get a heart attack considering how loud those things can be.

I think these are just hall effect sensors and you can find Arduino compatible ones

Make it and give me one. I'm working on a spelling bee.

It sounds like this study has a series of problems. No control group, no reference measurement, no predefined hypothesis, and it doesn’t seem to mention number of participants, unless I missed it suggesting that it’s a small number.

From this read I doubt it would replicate under stricter experimental conditions and with more rigor.

Edit: Oh and I forgot that the noted effect being equated with creativity is somewhat unreliable. Essentially they where given a math problem that randomly seems to also give an answer you can find in the number itself, but anyone would know that this can’t be relied upon and might lead to errors if you just assume that’s the answer. That is unless your unfocused or just less logical. They could repeat the test and replace the sleep element with getting drunk and they would likely see an effect.

Isn't the group that stayed awake the control group? Number of participants is mentioned repeatedly, also per group.

I suspect you just read the press article and not the study (linked in the press article).

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abj5866

This is absolutely fascinating. I'm really interested to learn why this seems to work so reliably well. What's going on on a chemical/electrical level in the brain during N1 sleep that gives it this unique ability, and why does it go away if you go too deep and enter N2 sleep?

Also, I'm incredibly eager to try this out now. First I've heard of it and it seems too good to be true.

I was also amazed when I could solve logic puzzles (it was a logic game) after having looked at it[1] for a couple of seconds. I cannot/could not explain how I solved it, I could not tell you in advance that I have to move left, then right to connect this and that and so forth, but after having looked at it for a couple of seconds, I pressed the keys "intuitively" and solved it! I did not believe that it really worked at first, but after I solved many difficult levels this way, I was pleasantly shocked. I remember being somewhat sleep deprived at that time as well.

[1] As in... simply looked. I did not try to solve it consciously.

I've had a similar experience but, but my takeaway was: what does it mean to solve something? Consciously? You still skip so many steps; often, I think we just "think through" the state of the puzzle in order to load its configuration; the solution pops into our head, which then think through again - and we call it conscious thought. It's like an idea popping into your head: You instantly take credit for it, but frankly, did you come up with the idea? Didn't you just start feeling like you got something and you started talking, and the words kept making sense? lmao

Looks like the brain has several layers of conscious states. The brain consumes many calories and thinking hard can make you tired. Especially if you have been very productive for a long time and then hit a wall. At the point of mental exhaustion, the brain desires sleep. You fall asleep and begin having a psychosis. The brain uses symbols that represent the psychosis causing hallucination. There is something about breaking the psychosis at the right time that alleviates some mental problems. Disclosure: I'm bipolar. I have some experience with psychosis I can tell you! All dreams are like psychoses..

What does psychosis actually refer to? I've heard the term but am not familiar with its official meaning

To those suffering it, it is normal reality, but to those observing it, it is chaos.

I also have some personal experience with psychosis, although I don't want to disclose it on HN. How do you personally know when you're done experiencing it and have "returned to normal"?

It depends on how deep it is. At a certain depth the only thing that can alert you (if you have it as a tenancy like I do) is the reactions of other people. THC can amplify the effect but CBD can dampen it. I don't know why I use either. I'm just imperfect that way. I'm bad to the bone.

The right level sleep is important. I have a lot of difficulty with this.

The formal definition according to Google is "a severe mental disorder in which thought and emotions are so impaired that contact is lost with external reality", so I guess technically, a dream meets that definition.

I think the commenter you're responding to is also referring to the way that in a psychotic state, all actions make sense to the psychotic person. The "psycho" stops following a deductive/conscious/scientific logic chain, and starts following inductive/subconscious/superstitious logic chain, all while perceiving internally a consistent narrative of reality.

Examples in the difference in logic chains:

- In a non-psychotic state, when I'm in my bedroom and notice that I am cold, I do not start a fire, because (a) fire is dangerous inside; (b) I remember that I have blankets, an HVAC system, etc.

- In a psychotic state (either dreaming or awake), when I'm in my bedroom and notice that I am cold, I might start a fire, because (a) an angel told me to; (b) it will protect me from the spirits in the darkness; (c) I believe the heating system is broken (even if I haven't looked at it) and I'm worried I'll freeze to death...

One cannot personally perceive psychosis while psychotic--reality always makes sense in the moment. Even the most demented Alzheimer's patient will construct a narrative of what's happening to them, even if it's just a vague sense of prehistoric fear and rage at the strange object invading their space (which in reality is a nurse trying to give them a bath).

I imagine you already know this but in case anyone who's reading doesn't: people who are labelled as "bipolar" uncontrollably enter mental states of varying degrees of psychosis where they often perform actions that hurt themselves and others, and then eventually they "return to reality" and are frequently horrified to discover what it is they've done. The "return to reality" sometimes requires medication and therapy. Observe: https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/i-would-like-closure-bu....

It's not all bad for people who are diagnosed bipolar, though--sometimes instead of anger or fear, a manic/bipolar person experiences happiness/love/joy and creates a great work of art or makes everyone around them feel really good. I doubt that most bipolar-diagnosed people enjoy the down-swings, though, and I suspect most would rather be rid of their "condition".

Another, slightly-related example about how psychosis works: if you understand a concept perfectly when someone else explains it, and you can't explain it to yourself once they're gone, you've experienced your mind perceive what appeared to be "reality" but was not, in fact, real. While the explainer was talking to you, you perceived that you understood the concept, and you experienced the sensation of understanding, but since you didn't actually understand, you were in a state not completely like but similar to what is call psychosis.

I'm going to try this now. Will report back.

Set the marble down then fell asleep. Need a better method.

I suppose it depends on the person but my N1 sleep state contains a bunch of compelling nonsense. The moment I wake back up I can see it's randomness. I just went to a Dali museum and I can't say I'm very surprised he was a fan.

Not to be rude, but I find that interesting and would like to guess.. Do you deal with a lot of random data in your daily/work life? Are you regularly compelled to deal with nonsense?

Conversely, have you any hobbies that you try to progress deeply into; like a sport, or music?

"In N1, you can imagine shapes, colors or even bits of dreams in front of your closed eyes, yet still hear stuff in your room"

So is this when DMT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N,N-Dimethyltryptamine starts to rise? It would make sense if it does, but melatonin increases before you get to N1 so I wonder what DMT is like without the melatonin? Maybe that's why there are rumours of some coders microdosing LSD in Silicon Valley, to keep up the creativity, but I cant help but think DMT might be better.

Now if you take some Lecithin before sleep maybe a gram or two, you will dream, but your dreams if you remember them which you probably will, will be based around events before you went to sleep. This then leads further credence to dreams being an indicator to help you process previous days or more historical events. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lecithin This is what I think is really helping your brain though, choline is used in the connections between neurons and explains baby brain forgetfulness with pregnant women. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphatidylcholine

I think DMT changed my friend Dairy Haas in a way that was negative.

When I was younger, often "falling" asleep felt like literally falling. I'd slam my arms down on the bed to "catch" myself, and shoot straight into a panicked awake state until my heart was ready to sleep again. I'd usually have memories just as described, weird combinations of the physical reality of my bedroom with random dream-stuff. I've also felt this on airplanes, not able to fall into any deeper level of sleep but fast-forwarding through time in a semi-aware state.

I did have some really interesting ideas, but usually without writing them down they are forgotten, so I tried that for a while. Can't say I ever thought of anything actually useful this way though, or ever thought about doing it to myself on purpose.

That is called a hypnic (or hypnagogic) or myoclonic jerk, it's pretty common just before you fall asleep.

This happens to me usually once every week ever since covid started and I got better sleep

I've experienced similar effects first hand.

University algorithm class assignment is due tomorrow at 1pm. I start working on it at midnight the day of. At around 4-5am I was stumped from a few problems, and went to campus to get some coffee. Tim Horton's doesn't open until 7am. I sit down in a chair and fall asleep.

While I was sleeping (half sleeping?), I dream-solved the remainder of the problems.

At 7am, I awoke, got my coffee, then went to type up the solutions.

I had a really similar experience during college. I was trying to display a binary tree in the command line. I was not able to solve it while awake. I went to bed with that problem in my mind. Then I dreamt the solution. I woke up and the dream made sense. I couldn’t believe it so I tried in the code and it worked! That was a surreal experience.

Dreaming of code is something that happens to me very frequently when I'm working on difficult problems and only the first few times was cool.

Now, when I dream of code, I can hear my inner self saying "no, please! I actually want to rest" because most of the times I feel like I'm in a loop exploring the same solutions over and over.

I've had to get out of bed and do something else so I can go back to sleep without having one of those weird dreams.

Wow. You described my experience exactly! I used to love earlier when I dream solved complex problems, but now I don't like it.

My technique to get good sleep is to fantasize that I am in a spaceship flying through the galaxy or observing Andromeda galaxy. Other times I dream of the Shire and that works too!

Ah.. We need to campaign for siestas in the office. Productivity really goes up after a nap I think. Mexicans were known to do this.

Some Google offices have employee nap pods. Or at least they did in 2015.

Did you get the right answers? :)

Hat tip for Timmies though.

I didn't get a perfect grade, but I think the insights did help somewhat. Maybe if I did this 1 day prior and edited my answers, I would have done perfectly :)

We must not forget to mention Einstein, who also was in the habit of taking naps in a an armchair while holding a rock in his hand.

Fo real?

> Luckily for Einstein, he also took regular naps. According to apocryphal legend, to make sure he didn’t overdo it he’d recline in his armchair with a spoon in his hand and a metal plate directly beneath. He’d allow himself to drift off for a second, then – bam! – the spoon would fall from his hand and the sound of it hitting the plate would wake him up

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20170612-what-you-can-lea...

Wow, I didn't know this technique was so widespread. Thank you for the source!

His name was Einstein, which means literally “one stone”.

Same thing as yoga nidra?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga_nidra

I once fell asleep while coming down from LSD and woke up with sleep paralysis. I was wide awake, still buzzed from the acid and completely paralyzed. Fortunately I didn't panic despite not knowing about sleep paralysis and thinking the LSD had paralyzed me. It took me awhile but I managed to shake myself into movement finally.

Other commentary on the original research article, on Scientific American:

Spark Creativity with Thomas Edison's Napping Technique - Waking yourself from the twilight state just before sleep may help you to solve a challenging problem, a study shows

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/thomas-edisons-na...

Even better, there is an article from the very original research coordinator Delphine Oudiette on The Conversation [Fra]

https://theconversation.com/pour-doper-votre-creativite-fait...

which, miraculously - since a dozen online magazines commented on this but never linked it (?! !!! !) -, contains the link to the original research article,

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S10870...

I thought Edison's "visionary" status had been discarded and his primary skillsets were deceit and self publicity?

How much meditation time does it take to strong arm other people's work over and over again?

It's a talent, but visionary doesn't seem apt.

I have always felt that Steve Jobs and Thomas Edison are two sides of one coin... it seems that both of their successes are related to the mix of a driving vision, controversial management style and relentless push for innovation. Different eras, similar results...

Let's say Edison created none of his lab's inventions. But it was still a lab he put together, was it not? He should get some credit -- so should the individual inventors, no doubt, but the question is just how visionary Edison was, and if his only real vision was creating a lab, hiring, and so on, then visionary he most definitely was.

Culminating ideas to place items in a market place and market them to be desirable to the public, while electrocuting elephants is hard work for any man.

Sometimes I get into what feels like similar state during meditation, particularly when tired. It definitely produces "different" thoughts, but I never thought of it this way. Interesting.

I use the hypnogagic state as part of my meditation routine.

I always shower before bed and that's when I tend to start getting sleepy. So I started meditating during that time.

I can get to the phase of seeing shifting colors and patterns very easily in this setup. I've been able to get there outside the hypnogagic state but only with some difficulty and not consistently.

Meditation is about being alert and present. Hypnagogia in my experience is a hindrance that impedes meditation progress since it dulls the senses and experience.

Mindful meditation, a technique very popular among big tech HR departments that want alert and present employees, is about being alert and present. There's many techniques and first hand stories of people achieving states more similar to like the one in the article with more let's say "older" or simpler and more basic meditation techniques that don't require too much mental gymnastics. Bodhidharma staring at a wall comes to mind.

Meditation is a wide range of practice.

If your goal is to be aware of yourself in the immediate, to feel things directly, then the hypnogagic state can work well. Obviously your mileage may vary.

This may have to do with being relaxed, not really thinking about the problem at hand and letting your intuition take over. I have had experiences where working intensely on a problem, even for weeks, didn't solve it but walking away from it and being totally relaxed and the solution just popped in my head. It could be in a shower, having a meal with friends, in the middle of the night or on a walk. You already have the necessary facts and observations but somehow you have not made that last intuitive leap. And when you do, you instantly know it is right as all of a sudden the cloud of possibilities collapses to a single point!

I don't think of it as creativity as much as sparking one's intuition. The "sleep technique" test also relies pattern recognition, which is sort of a limited creativity. You are making the final connection as opposed to opening up a whole new world of possibilities.

I often have really good ideas under the shower that eluded me while thinking hard about it at my desk. I really wonder when they can reproduce the creative boost of taking a shower in a lab experiment.

Both Dali and Edison did not have families and children to rise. They were multimillionaries also. If you are also childless and multimillionaire, you can experiment with what essentially a sleep deprivation, having hallutinations that are useful in a work of... genius?

Also, in case of Edison, he used an army of assistants to comb through his ideas and patents avaiable at the time to find what is useful. Again, a privilege of multimillionaire

These techniques cannot be used by a person who have to walk a dog early every morning, help his son to go to a school and work with complex code base.

A comment from a passerby. You say it like this is something you don’t have agency over (at least early on). It’s like saying that “yeah, you cannot be a good painter if you are solving math problems all the time”. Same with childless multimillionaires - it’s not like you are born into being one.

>Same with childless multimillionaires - it’s not like you are born into being one.

I'm reasonably sure you're not saying no one is born into wealth, and I'm equally sure that all multimillionaires are born childless

You could quite easily use this technique when your child is in bed, before your usual bedtime. It would be an interesting thing to try in the evening when you're stuck on a coding problem.

It's only really useful if you can get to that stage of N1 sleep quite quickly anyway so it wouldn't apply to all people. I don't think it's the domain of childless millionaires.

> These techniques cannot be used by a person who have to walk a dog early every morning, help his son to go to a school and work with complex code base.

Of course they can. Just not by you. Mutual exclusion does not apply here.

This is interesting. In our never-ending 24 hour news cycle, our central nervous systems are hijacked by adrenaline, glucose, nicotine & caffeine.

It is a never ending struggle for our bodies to feel relaxed. I fully believe this is a major hindrance to creativity as the logical, ordered side takes over and rules the roost like a dictator.

Although I haven't used this specific technique, I have however done Alexander Technique in my theatre training. It's incredible how much tension our bodies can hold without our minds being aware or conscious of it.

> I have however done Alexander Technique in my theatre training. It's incredible how much tension our bodies can hold without our minds being aware or conscious of it.

I find that very interesting. Can you share more? Specifically, what exercises do you suggest for letting go of such unconsciously held tension in the body? Any books or other resources you can recommend?

Thanks!

> The researchers found that the participants who spent at least 15 seconds in the N1 stage had an 83% chance of discovering the hidden rule, compared with a 30% chance for those who remained awake.

"The only difference between the two groups is one minute," Oudiette said. That's "kind of a spectacular result." But if the participants drifted into N2 sleep, the effect disappeared.

Why don't they say what the rate was for people in N2 sleep? Presumably it's more than the 30% chance, but less than the 83%?

I have aphantasia, but this exact state (just as I fall asleep) is the only time I can consciously see images in my head. It’s very odd

Same. I also see images while dreaming though. And after drinking alcohol, after lying down to sleep, but in an earlier state than about-to-fall-asleep, I see weird star patterns.

My pre-sleep alcohol induced imagination is like a colored star which keeps changing in different ways. It follows a rhythm, maybe similar to my heartbeat. Maybe the color will change, maybe the center of the star will grow in size, maybe the star will get more spikes. It often fills my mind's eye quickly. It usually lasts just a few seconds right as I lay down. Sometimes at the end it develops into more like images than star patterns, but it feels similar.

Same here— though it's not "images" in my case, best I can manage is a blob of either green, red, or purple (but I can consciously control which color it is, so that's neat)

There is an interesting discussion to be had about the experimental design. The intervention was essentially: "the subject managed to fall asleep, and then woke up in the N1 stage." This assignment is not "random" in the same way that a drug trial is random. There are many general-state variables which likely govern our ability to fall asleep (anxiety, hunger, etc) and this study doesn't block any of them in the same way that a drug trial would (via randomization). That being said, the fact that participants who fell asleep and _didn't_ wake during N1 did not see improvement over control makes me more intrigued. (Assuming this is all true: brain scan research is really noisy and small-sample-size and has an atrocious replication record).

A powernap (one good audio here - https://soundcloud.com/withandrewjohnson/power-nap-with-andr...) can be helpful to get into some of this state.

This “hold an object while falling asleep” technique sounds very similar to a technique I read about maybe 15 years ago at an avant-garde sleep away arts camp. It was in the context of lucid dreaming and not increasing creativity, though.

That technique didn’t involve holding an object, but going to sleep with your elbow against the floor/bed and your forearm raised. When you started to fall asleep your arm would fall and wake you up as it hit the floor/bed.

It also suggesting sleeping with your head facing north, but that part seems less scientific to me. Nevertheless, very interesting how this came back around.

I notice this state quite often in myself. Not every night, but enough that it's not really notable anymore.

Usually, two seemingly unrelated concepts that I have been thinking about will become joined in strange ways — sometimes literally (some code I have been working on will be playing a song I have been listening to), sometimes in ways that I can't understand or describe.

Other times, I will hear music as loudly and clearly as if I were at a concert. It can be music that is actually playing, or not.

I find the experience pleasant and wish I could extend it.

I don’t know if this is precisely that state but I’ve found that when I drift off while reading, there will be a moment where the text melds with the dream state. A text on surveillance capitalism will sudden include a narrative or will merge with something else that I’ve read.

Dreams are such a lovely experience. I love recounting them and the corresponding dream logic. I especially treasure filmmakers who can recreate that dream feeling. Fellini comes to mind.

There have been a bunch of times in my life where I spent all day or even a few days on a difficult design and/or code problem. Then as I'm just barely coming out of it in the morning — bam — some novel solution to what I'd spend hours on the day prior. Not N1 as mentioned in the post but a very cool experience.

> In N1, you can imagine shapes, colors or even bits of dreams in front of your closed eyes

It happened to me on several occasions that I would wake up after 10 minutes of early sleep, and I would see things that aren’t there, like photographs projected on the blank walls of my bedroom. I was definitely awake, in the dark, and I would see these images for a minute or so before they faded away.

I’m a visual artist and I guess I use this all the time, although I don’t have any wake-up device. I just lie down for a nap and loosely let my mind wander around whatever I’m trying to work on, or just undirected.

The images just start to come, not like visual hallucinations, but like someone else were imagining things for me, almost.

I guess it’s good I work from home, and not in an office somewhere…

This does sound very cool, although I wouldn't be shocked to read at some point in the future that it couldn't be replicated.

Just realized that there's almost no mention in the comments so far about the similarity to hypnosis: access to previously inaccessible memories, hallucinations, high suggestibility...

Not sure how much I believe about hypnosis, but maybe it's related. Could it be just helping people get into this N1 state while awake?

We did that in high school physics. Physics was last period and before swim practice. We'd put a pencil in our hands and dangle our hand off the edge of the desk. When you dropped your pencil it'd wake you up. Hopefully it'd wake you up so the team wouldn't skeak off an leave you sleeping in the physics lab.

> One participant said "At one point, I saw a horse in the hospital.

And that study participant's name? John Mulaney.

FWIW, I've found it easier to lie on my back in bed and hold a chopstick just over my nose or forehead. Thumb has to be under the chopstick, fingers over (a normal grip can freeze the stick in place.) After a while I shifted to using a slightly larger penny whistle, actually.

So my smartphone hitting me in the head every night when i loose grip b.c. of N1, shows how creative i am?

I feel like this is only helpful if one has the resources to pursue the ideas. Otherwise it could be depressing.

Yes, tis true, it’s a state called hypnogogia, everyone experiences it. In my personal experience, it’s most easy to dive into a hypnogogic state if you simply attempt to go to bed, i.e. don’t read before bed, spend time on the phone etc. just lie down and let your brain meander.

I always tried to time this so that I didn’t oversleep and disrupt my sleep pattern for later when I actually want to sleep through the night. I never really noticed a difference in my creativity, but maybe I need to try some specific activities after waking.

Sometimes I fall asleep with my hands on the keyboard and wake up soon after to find jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj... in my editor

Sounds interesting, but I have such a hard time falling asleep, that the last thing I want to do is be woken up once just as I do.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoiac-critical_method

> To use the technique, visionaries such as Dalí and Edison would hold an object, such as a spoon or a ball, while falling asleep in a chair.

This one isn't going to work for me, I think. I can never fall asleep in chairs or anywhere except comfortably lying down. Perhaps I could try holding one arm with a ball in it off the edge of the bed.

I have bad sleep aponea, so awake up constantly through the night. I am also very creative. It never occurred to me these things may be linked.

My new CPAP machine may stifle my creativity. Huh

Didn't Benjamin Franklin do this? If I recall from his biography, he'd essentially hold a marble or something while in his rocking chair and it would drop onto a plate

It would be neat if instead of holding objects that you drop, the Apple Watch could somehow sense this change in your heart rhythm or some other factor and wake you up.

Instead of holding a pencil, can't a smartwatch detect your sleep state and wake you up at exactly the right moment?

You’re not going to get that sort of fidelity from a smart watch, you need some brain traces

I suppose that dropping of the pencil is caused by muscles relaxing. I'm surprised a smartwatch can't detect this relaxation. But perhaps it's at the wrong location for that.

Maybe? Why would you want to when a simple solution exists?

Is this a legit question? Instead of trying to sleep in an awkward position where you can drop something and have it wake you up, you could sleep in your bed and be woken up at the right time.

OTOH, this just feels like pushing some app solution on something that doesn't need it. Different strokes.

And "right time" is highly debateable given the current tech at determining sleep cycles.

Maybe from velocity? Just hold your hand up, and when it drops...

I heard the pre nap brain was also more creative. Just laying down on bed was enough to change your imagination.

This sleep technique can be easily replicated in modern life: work from home, have lunch then a lie-down then have the Teams app's blippedy blip blip blip incoming message audio notifications wake you up to the harsh world of reality.

Haven't felt this leads to me feeling especially creative, though.

It makes me imagine creative ways to quit my job and run away to an island somewhere

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Someone needs to measure the anxiety between the first blip and the potential second/multiple blips or expectation thereof

My anxiety curve is exponential.

First blip: Don't care

Second blip: Holy moly, is the world on fire?

wow, that's quite the coefficient on that exponential lol

I'd doubt it works well for tasks that require concentration. A good period of sleep is important for these.

I wonder if this creativity effect is related to sudden serendipitous moments while in the shower.

I was so inspired by this concept a decade ago that I registered hypnagogics.com (currently down)

Lying down holding phone right above your face reading HN at 2am should work the same.

Curse the wretched spoon for disturbing you and go back to sleep.

Anecdotally I can confirm that a lot of this is true

Can we please respect readers and not post ad riddled sites like this to HN? It’s impossible to read a paragraph without an ad jumping in the way.

Adblock is your friend.

There are mobile browsers which support this (Firefox notably), and mobile-device adblock apps as well, in the event you're not on a desktop system.

If you're in a corporate environment, put in a request for adblock on your network as, amongst other things, a security feature:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28631005

Thanks I didn’t know Firefox with Adblock was an option on mobile.

It is, and is a lifesaver.

Essential extensions: uBlock Origin, Decentralize, Ghostery, Privacy Possum, Privacy Badger, NoScript, Ghostery.

You might also appreciate Dark Reader.

I wish Stylus (CSS manager) was supported.

Its tab management / display is also vastly superior to Chrome's.

Firefox/Android (or Fennec via F-Droid) has some annoyances:

- No keyboard hotkeys.

- Doesn't full-screen maximise.

- No print-to-PDF.

- No per-site font or zoom settings.

- No per-site cookie management.

- Weak Bookmarks controls (bookmarks cannot be reordered once saved).

For a mobile browser, though, it's pretty good. Far superior to Chrome IMO, except on older devices where there's still a noticeable performance penalty (a 2015-era Samsung tablet).

I’ve experimented with all of these techniques, and you basically get the same benefit from 20 minutes of vigorous exercise.

For years this has been a personal joy of cycling to work...arriving at work with a thousand ideas of how to solve various challenges, and returning home scrambling for a notebook to capture the wild thoughts that emerged on the last half of the journey.

I have some success with the TM technique, some days I'm just drained and don't want to do anything and after 20 minutes of TM in the afternoon I spring up and engage in hobbies or social activities as if it was a new day. It's better than a nap, which just gets rid of the heavy bodied tiredness. I also tried mindfulness before but I feel I get kinda like the creativity boost but not the rested state.

Is ‘tm’ transcendental meditation in this context?

Yes

TM?

Transcendental Meditation. It's a more passive way of meditation than mindfulness that was kinda like a big I thing I think in the 70s or something? A lot of rich people are into it, most notable David Lynch and I think Jim Carrey... they have good marketing and it's kinda expensive if you are on a high earning bracket but of the woo woo weird things I spent money on it's one I don't regret.

My Dad also took a lot of naps. I've never been able to fill his shoes figuratively or literally. He was sharp as a pin.

He also had big feet?

Sure did. He stood 6 foot 4 inches. I'm 5'9. His shoes were quite fascinating growing up as a little guy.

Oh this is a thing? This happens to me when I’m working all night. I don’t work late often but when I do I’ll drift in and out of a half dozing state to reset and have a burst of coding energy.

I never knew this was a Dali thing. I purposely push myself those nights to get to the point of drifting in and out.

Again, not something I do often, and when I do I’m already in a pretty creative mood.

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