[0] https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/health-professional/cancer-...
US figures are here: https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/health-statisti...
To make a toy example just to make the reasoning clear: if men’s BMI was distributed as 50% = 20, 50% = 35, and women’s BMI was distributed as 95% = 20, 5% = 35, the average body fat of all men would be higher than the average body fat of all women, even though the average body fat of women BMI=X would be higher than of men BMI=X for all X.
but it seems the real issue with fat is how much visceral fat there is vs. the total amount anyway. obese folks all tend to have much more visceral fat than relatively fit individuals. visceral fat interferes more with the workings of organs and the signaling mechanisms (hormones, neural pathways, lymph/blood compositions, etc.) that keep a body healthy.
issues like these are very politicized, but it's likely that most of long covid is a combination of people who are having post-illness long-term sequelae and then also people with CFS-like symptoms, perhaps exacerbated by negative media coverage around covid and long covid.
as i've said, long-term sequelae certainly exist - and they are different for covid probably.
i also have had long-term loss of smell and modification of taste after getting a breakthrough delta case.
that said, demographically (as well as by diversity of symptoms reported), it does appear that there is also a "CFS-like" disease population being super-imposed on top of those that are experiencing long-term sequelae. much of the conversation around long covid is also being funded by ME/CFS lobbying/patient advocacy groups [0].
i think there are two distinct phenomena, and the fact that women are over-represented as long covid patients may be due to the CFS-like phenomena rather than the sequelae one.
[0]: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-dubious-origins-of-long-cov...
The Journal has told us twice this year that “Herd Immunity is Near”
“Herd Immunity Is Near, Despite Fauci’s Denial”
https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/herd-immunity-is-near-despi...
“Herd Immunity Is Near, Despite Fauci’s Denial”
It’s December 2021. What went wrong?
So, in March people should have said the opinion was reasonable and made corresponding policy decisions.
Include any facts that support a belief and omit all others.
Anyway, I’m simply saying the track record of the Journal leans more in one direction, and is frequently wrong.
Furthermore, no one ever follows up to correct all those incorrect opinions
Perhaps the steady diet of “coronavirus is no big deal” and “climate change “ opinions has skewed my opinion but to me the wsj seems to have an agenda.
“ Climate Change Calls for Adaptation, Not Panic”
https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/climate-change-adaptation-p...
What a completely unrelated piece by Bjørn Lomborg has to do with covid is not easy to understand. Hopefully no one is surprised if Lomborg has a simplified view of any given environmental problem. He is a business school professor after all and pretty well known for these things.
If we would have reached herd immunity at 70-80% vaccinated (which is what was being said) then the argument was we would reach it sooner due to antibodies.
Given that delta evolved and rendered both of those stories bunk, I think it is silly to solely blame the WSJ for being wrong at predicting the future here.
And what do you mean by "politicized"? Where has long covid been politicized? I haven't seen anything like that.
Real illnesses that people are suffering from can be psychosomatic or affected by mental status. There is a ton of stigma around suggestions like these, hence the subtext of your comment that a "real illness" is independent from mental state.
> And what do you mean by "politicized"? Where has long covid been politicized? I haven't seen anything like that.
If you are a researcher and your research suggests that many cases of long covid or CFS have a psychological component or are psychosomatically driven, you will get death threats as well as condemned by advocacy organizations. [0] That is what I mean by politicized.
The underlying root of the issue is stigma around any sort of illness that has a psychological component.
[0]: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/chronic-f...
Just because the underlying biological mechanism isn't understood doesn't mean that there isn't one. To me CFS seems like a case of a disease neglected by medical science because it's dismissed as being psychosomatic.
> the most successful treatment programs tend to focus on careful regulating exercise and diet which again seems to be largely physical.
This is coming from the PACE study, I'm assuming. PACE is largely viewed as suggesting that CFS has a substantial psychological component. There is a bunch of other literature on this as well.
Exercise and diet changes are usually successful treatments for psychosomatic-like illnesses, so I disagree that this treatment means that it is a physical disease.
Many of the original researchers who provided evidence that the disease is non-physical in nature have since left the field after extensive death threats and harassment. [0]
> Reuters contacted a dozen professors, doctors and researchers with experience of analysing or testing potential treatments for chronic fatigue syndrome. All said they had been the target of online harassment because activists objected to their findings. Only two had definite plans to continue researching treatments.
[0]: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/science-...
The layman interpretation of this is that long COVID is possibly a mental health issue associated with the belief in having had a prior infection, except for the loss-of-taste symptom which is very specific to COVID (vs, say, persistent fatigue). Not to say "it's not real", but maybe "it's not always viral in origin".
2. Your point was that people with more severe covid would
> thinks they had COVID-19 and didn’t even bother getting tested
The problem with that theory is that the serology testing in this study was conducted on everybody so whether or not people chose to get tested when they had covid was irrelevant. The fact that perceived infection correlates higher with these symptoms means that these symptoms are more related to someone's self perception of infection than any physical change.
2. Psychological components of an illness are still an illness, and I'm not suggesting that long covid is a "fabrication." You need to get over your internalized stigma, psychological effects can be incredibly powerful.
People experiencing CFS get similarly outraged when people suggest there is a psychological component to the disease. This is due to stigma. Indeed, if anything, CFS is good evidence of the strong impact that even a (probably) psychologically derived illness can have on one's physical well-being.
3. Even saying that something is at least partially driven by the media does not mean it is not a "serious" problem. Media coverage of high profile suicides leads to a measurable increase in the number of suicides in the general population. Those people killing themselves is not a "fabrication" and is in fact a really serious problem. i would be surprised if we hadn't seen something like cfs for covid emerge given the level of scary (to be clear, not irrationally scary, justifiably scary) media coverage around covid.
AFAIK there is no strong consensus that (even covid-unrelated) CFS is probably psychosomatic in constrast to, say, immunologic.
Perhaps it doesn't matter that much at all, the treatment for either is the same. Indeed, if you tell people with CFS that they instead have post-viral sequelae, their outcomes are significantly better.
Basically, the current status is no mechanism has been identified to cause CFS, there is a huge diversity of symptoms and demographics of who gets CFS, and there is substantial circumstantial evidence suggesting large psychological components (differences in effectiveness based on what you call the disease, larger correlation between self-reported illness vs. serological results, etc.) that all come together to form a broader whole. PACE is largely accepted in the medical research community, it has only been "debunked" in the blogosphere and news articles.
I'm also not going to be drawing conclusions from "I know some people X" and "other people Y." Hopefully the scientists studying this don't do that either.
Long Covid _is_ CFS. Viruses and bacteria are always the trigger for CFS.
That is definitely not even close to the consensus opinion of the field. there have been a number of attempts to try to show viruses as causing cfs, they have been discredited, whereas the pace study has not. [0]
post-aids patient advocacy, in clinical practice it has become incredibly unwise and unpopular to say that something is psychological in nature. even researchers who don't do anything in the clinic will still get death threats for suggesting otherwise.
Whenever a doctor doesn’t know the answer, it’s always psychological. It’s the easy way out.
People like you piss me off to no end so I’m gonna stop replying.
this is exactly what i mean when i say this stuff is politicized.
i disagree fundamentally with the epistemic theory of "trust people to know what is causing their illness, not doctors or researchers."
e: for evidence of what this particular strain of "patient advocacy" looks like, just peruse through this person's previous comments (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29398210), such as:
> Alzheimer isn’t a disease but a symptom of chronic viruses and bacteria. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6066504/
> People with Alzheimer have been cured after taking antibiotics.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3063394/
We don't know that viruses and bacteria are always the trigger for CFS. That's a reasonable hypothesis but remains unproven. There could be other root causes for some cases.
https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/androgen-receptors...