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Comment by Consultant32452 | Hacker News Reader

A useful technique along the same lines as the one you mentioned is called "pacing and leading." In this technique you begin by agreeing with them as much as possible (pacing), and then lead them towards the better position.

https://leversofpersuasion.medium.com/pacing-and-leading-133...

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Also known as manipulation. You cannot get to a better combined perspective if you are not presenting yourself truthfully.

Every interaction has an element of persuasion in it. You can be good at persuasion or bad at persuasion, but it's always there. It becomes manipulation if you are intending harm, manipulation is negative persuasion.

...or I might not care about persuading or being persuaded, as much as seeing an improved perspective reveal itself to both of us. It's the difference between dialog and discourse.

You caring is irrelevant. Even if all you want to do is persuade the other person you're listening, it's there.

Why do I want to *persuade* the other person that I'm listening? I might not be and therefore go down a road I don't find relevant to me. Honest signalling would allow the other person to course correct.

Signaling is persuasion.

What is a dog trying to persuade you of when it's wagging it's tail? What is the microwave trying to persuade me of when it beeps?

I don't know anything about dog psychology. The manufacturer of the microwave is communicating with you. They may choose pleasing tones and volumes to invoke pleasant emotions in you. A fancy tone may be used to persuade you of quality over a simple ding of a bell. An elegant interface on the microwave is intended by the manufacturer to persuade you of its quality or value.

Even if the manufacturer just picked the cheapest possible dinging bell sound, that's also going to persuade you of something even if the manufacturer had no intention to persuade you. That would be passive, unintended persuasion, which we do constantly.

Persuasion minus intent is simply making up your own mind.

A microwave's tone could be chosen by the manufacturer to signify quality, true. However the primary meaning of the ding itself, to me is that it is signalling that my timer has run out and I might want to attend to it. Persuasion does not seem like the right word.

Not sure where you got this "manipulation is negative persuasion" definition. You can most certainly manipulate people without intending harm. For example, I could manipulate you into buying a bagel instead of a croissant, just to see if I could manipulate you into doing so. No harm is intended, but it's still manipulation.

Manipulation in American English generally has a negative connotation. Technically you can say your doctor manipulated you into losing weight because of your heart disease, but that would be an odd usage. You would normally say she persuaded or convinced you. Conversely, the car salesman manipulated you into buying the unnecessary extra warranty.

American Heritage dictionary has this definition for manipulation:

>Shrewd or devious management, especially for one's own advantage.

Lastly, if you try to convince me of something "just to see if you can" that would definitely be perceived as negative to most people. You did it for your benefit, the enjoyment or education of doing it.

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