Ready For a Reddit Replacement? | Hacker News Reader

Ready For a Reddit Replacement?

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All these news discussion sites (Slashdot, Digg, Reddit, HN, hell even 4chan) started out very good when the communities were small and then they grew to massive size and lost their personalities, got more generalized, were gamed more frequently, succumbed to group think, and had a bazillion other problems related to their popularity and size.

Reddit can somewhat mitigate this with subreddits and MeFi can slow the process by charging a fee. Perhaps their downfall is still inevitable.

His comments about reddit's recent mood swings, however, don't mean much. That type of thing has been happening every few weeks for a couple years now. The reddit community is always in a huff about something.

Maybe this idea (Google circles for news aggregators?) will help. Or maybe we should just abandon this discussion model all together.

I don't think abandoning the discussion model is the right answer, I think it just needs to get better. All of these communities seem to follow a simple principle: they grow in size until their ability to self-filter, self-organize, and maintain community valuse is compromised by a volume of traffic or overall size of membership larger than they are capable of handling. The latest batch of discussion sites and tools (reddit, news.yc, digg, /., etc.) are simply the latest and best models of a continuously growing and improving application space.

I think the only way for a "community" to exist long term in this space is to either continue advancing the state of it's filtering tools in order to handle the increased load, or not, and let it naturally degrade back into a smaller community and just exist at the level that it is capable of filtering (though this is not as simple as a community capable of holding X users will always have X users -- momentum and network effects are definitely important here).

The reason I like reddit is because of the subreddits. There are, however, really great communities for discussing something really niche outside of reddit. Some of which have bigger communities with even better contributors than reddit.

The problem is that they are using rather primitive forum systems like phpBB and the like.

After using reddit, phpBB is like going to the stone age, imagine if hacker news was on a simple forum system like that.

I know reddit is an aggregator site, but I think they are the strongest competitor to forums, think about it: how hard is it get the gist of a discussion on one of those forums, where you have to scroll through tens of pages on a really popular topic.

my point is: why doesn't reddit create a product that will allow any site to to have their own subreddit style page completely autonomous of reddit.com?

Do they have to create a "product"? Reddit is open source, and you can download it if you like, from http://code.reddit.com/ . You could literally build what you are describing on the Reddit platform right now.

Apparently RedditOSS is in shambles, and very difficult to get working. They were looking to address that with the new hires, however.

Have you checked recently? I'm familiar with the sentiments you're echoing but I think they're beginning to address this issue. The GitHub repo is seeing some activity at the very least.

The last I knew of it, there was a post on HN. I later asked hueypriest if their new hires would be trying to fix up redditOSS, and he said it was one of their priorities. This was a couple months ago (if not more), so it's entirely possible that they've done significant work on it. If that's the case, I suspect we'll see a blog post before too long.

"why doesn't reddit create a product that will allow any site to to have their own subreddit style page completely autonomous of reddit.com?"

It's easy to do this on reddit itself:

1. Create a subreddit for your new forum.

2. In the subreddit control panel, enter the domain name you're going to use for it.

3. In your domain name registrar control panel, point your www cname at rhs.reddit.com.

4. Voila, you've got your own subreddit style forum, with the benefit of it being integrated into the reddit supercommunity to whatever extent you want.

I've done that, and it's not what you might call seamless. I tried to make the community its own entity, with its own look and feel. The problem is that the pages are full of links that take you back to reddit.com rather than their equivalent on your own domain. That's very confusing to non-redditors who suddenly find themselves on a seemingly unrelated site, with all the disorientation and styling-whiplash that entails.

It's a neat idea but it needs a lot more polish to be really useful.

On Hubski, user follow one another, rather than communities, as they do on Reddit. Instead of voting a post up and down, you simply share it. That propagates it to your readers; the more people share it, the hotter that post becomes.

sounds like he has created Twitter.

But with threading, and without artificial length constraints.

That's not fair. It has comment pages for each post (?) with proper comment threads- better than Google+ and facebook in that regard.

Edit: And, of course, twitter, the one without comments, comment sections, comment pages...

Not Twitter, maybe Sina Weibo, hahaha

An HN-Twitter mashup? Sign me up!

The Sub-reddits are genius, building all these amazing sub communities. This is a big step back, their answer to the 'supposed' decline in Reddit is let's just make a clone, why? Because it'll have less users. Let's say it did hugely well, it'd be a vicious circle leading to everyone moving to another clone.

Sure it will be a vicious cycle. Same thing with fashions and popular hangouts. It's human nature, and somehow peoe make money in those businesses :-)

http://gilesbowkett.blogspot.com/2008/05/summon-monsters-ope...

Thanks for posting this, it's been a while since I've read it. One of the best things he's written. IMO, this is the real solution to the slashdot / digg / reddit /HN problem.

I always think it's ridiculous when I hear "It's the new reddit" and then see what basically amounts to a Wordpress blog layout. Reddit, digg, HN were all partly successful because of their layout, not in spite of it. I don't want to scroll past the meta of every article today just to see what you have; I want a list of what's happening that is sorted/controlled by the community. And the less images, the better. I like reddit in that I can turn off the images so that I can fit 17-20 article headlines on a page w/o scrolling.

Ugh.

This comment seems very out of context. Perhaps you've mistaken the wordpress blog for the site it talks about?

The site: http://www.hubski.com/

I would say that HN is successful in spite of its layout.

I think it's perfect. It's easy to see if there are any new posts (and it's clear which ones you have visited).

It's also not going to attract much attention if you have it open at work.

I think if you're going to make the "in spite of" argument (on any site), you have to bring some solid supporting evidence.

I was playing around with a UI for a HN/Reddit style site: http://beta.dragthelake.org/index.php

No social platform is going to disrupt the existing systems until they decouple content and organization. The main issue is that we assume that all 'upvotes' are equal. If a user can select who is in their filter layer (like in Twitter), as opposed to selecting content (a subreddit), there will be a shift away from the cycle of bread and circuses.

Hubski may be doing that but only implementing this one graph node deep and only having one default category for information, will probably not create a vibrant and diverse community.

>If a user can select who is in their filter layer (like in Twitter), as opposed to selecting content (a subreddit), there will be a shift away from the cycle of bread and circuses.

Are you sure this isn't already happening to some degree? What reaches the front page of my account is different from what reaches the front page with cookies cleared. I suspect reddit is already using AI algorithms to filter out what is relevant based on who I upvote, the subreddits I visit, who I interact with, etc...

When you're logged in the front page only shows you the content from the reddits you're subscribed to, I believe.

Very cool, but he's solving an imagined problem.

So was Twitter, and Blogger before that.

reddit is almost entirely in existence due to its community/userbase. it's all it had when digg imploded, and it's pulled them through from dark to the traffic heights they are at now.

thing missing from reddit, despite the forum-like discussion thread part, is that it isn't social. it doesn't promote following users or anything of that nature or has little of those features (one thing that digg has/had)

thing is, currently, the way reddit is/is going -- there's not much that needs to be changed. it covers alot of use cases for alot of its userbase (i.e. I use it solely for submission and upvoting/link popularity tracking, and hardly for anything discussion/forum related)

Unlike many of you here, I am a reddit late adopter. I first joined HN (like 3 years back), there were plethora of good posts so I never explored more. I never heard much about reddit for 1 year I think. Then there was this major discussion about how reddit is not relevant enough these days, that put me off reddit altogether. Then about 6 months back (I think) a good man posted a long discussion about how subreddits are the best things about reddit. I thought I would go and check. I made my account in March I think and randomly searched for subreddits. That makes me perhaps the latest adopter here. And I must tell you, I like those subreddits much better than HN now. There are many reasons for that but first remember, to each his own okey. So no need to flame me about my opinions and choices.

1. Its actually more relevant. I have many interests but CS is not a prominent one. There are some good intellectual discussions here but most of them are about highly technical stuff I cannot understand or comment on. I am a Electronics major so I like /r/ece and /r/electronics. They are smart people and have great discussions. Sure I do not comment much there. But still the comments are more valuable than the post itself (just like HN). Apart from that there are subreddits about prowrestling which of course will never be mentioned here. So I find subreddits are actually more relevant to my life.

2. They are smart people. Contrary to popular beliefs, not every redditor is abour lolcats. Most of the people I interact with on reddit are very smart. Not only in technical subreddits but reddits like r/SquaredCircle/ and /r/prowrestling see very interesting discussions. Pro wrestling is a technical thing and they do justice to it even while comparing thoughts about story lines.

3. I like the light hearted part. I don't know about you but people here are very focused on their work perhaps. Some light hearted comments (even if they are witty or clever jokes) will get downvoted and fade into the background (literally). To some extent these things are permissible in subreddits. I like that. I am not in the mood for a fierce discussion every time. Many times comment section can be clearly divided into two parts, relevant discussions and witty comments. The latter will fade into the background here. Also due to this, nobody rides high horses there. People on HN are many a times guilty of that. Like in the recent discussions about game industry and endeavors like facebook and 4chan where people think that intellect is wasted on such things. Why would you judge what people want to do for there whole life? I wouldn't and I don't like people who do.

4. New subreddits come up when I like. I am going to join either ai-class or ml-class (dammit I need to decide), subreddits of both are available. Isn't that fantastic?

So this is why I like reddit more than HN now. Sorry if this hurts anyone's feelings but that is how it is.

> this is why I like reddit more than HN now. Sorry if this hurts anyone's feelings but that is how it is.

I do not think they are comparable at all. Maybe we could compare r/technology to HN, but the idea of the subreddits is exactly to cover a wide breadth of topics.

I also love some subreddits and almost never look at the most visited ones (pics, lol, games, etc).

The only thing that is missing for me is a way to "weight" each subreddit so that they higher preference to the stories in the homepage. This is because there are subreddits that only get one or two links every day, and due to the slow amount of subscribers, they get low votes. I'd like to be able to prioritize these in some way so that they get at the top of my front-page. Or better yet, let an algorithm calculate the "importance" of the thread based on the share of upvotes to subreddit subscribers.

>2. They are smart people. Contrary to popular beliefs, not every redditor is abour lolcats

I think the correct way to put it is that there are smart people. However, right now the majority of them are in different subreddits.

>3. I like the light hearted part. I don't know about you but people here are very focused on their work perhaps. Some light hearted comments (even if they are witty or clever jokes) will get downvoted and fade into the background (literally).

Well, I love the serious nature of HN. In some way it is like the old time Usenet discussions. The only thing I do not like about HN is the heavy nit-picking. But I can live with that in exchange of the really interesting discussion. I came here after leaving Slashdot, due to the decline in quality (there is so much Technology Politics I can stand).

>I am going to join either ai-class or ml-class (dammit I need to decide), subreddits of both are available. Isn't that fantastic?

Yes! this is the great value of reddit. IMO It is like a new type of Usenet. BTW, If you have taken an AI class, I would recommend you to go for that, as I am sure you are going to "touch" ML themes on that. Otherwise, if you are specifically interested in ML then go for it :)

That is something someone should work on, instead of making a new social aggregation site. The new site will be good for one or two years, then it will hit mainstream and lolcats will ensue. I have heard many people say that if you want to determine how popular one social site is then you just have to calculate the number of mames per post in the public or most general stream.

Well, I love the serious nature of HN

I never said subreddits are not serious. Most of the posts portray the same quality as HN (many a times even more than HN IMHO, maybe there is a section common between the two sites). The problem is, HN is never not serious. That does not seem right to me. I must be able to joke about my work. We also don't have to be judgmental about other people's work. Its one thing to criticize someone's library because it has a badly designed API and it is quite other thing to tell game programmers they are wasting their talent in their own selected job.

I think the correct way to put it is that there are smart people. However, right now the majority of them are in different subreddits.

The correct way to put it is, that if you cannot find smart people on reddit, you are looking in the wrong subreddit. Of course you are not going to find smart people on every damn reddit. After all reddit is a general purpose site and thus many people are not what you would consider "smart". Damn, there are people who come to reddit "just to have a good time". Fools they are. Internet is all about having intelligent discussions dammit ;)

I do not think they are comparable at all. Maybe we could compare r/technology to HN, but the idea of the subreddits is exactly to cover a wide breadth of topics.

I posted it here because I have read many, many times that HN is much better than reddit. That reddit is soon gonna die or something equivalent. No hard feelings, but I despise such proclamations if not the people who make them.

Reddit is all about its community - you cannot defeat it with just features alone.

And if you've figured out how to reliably build a community from scratch on the internet, well, there's a few billion dollars in it for you...

Reddit is most certainly having its own Eternal September.

I can not say I like that community much at all anymore

IMO it's all in the moderation. Reddit's very rudimentary up/downvote system, well, sucks. It lets the lowest common denominator rise to the top, which oddly enough is not what most users want to see.

I'm imagining right now a Reddit with Slashdot's moderation system... but, I continue dreaming.

Slashdot… just failed remarkably. Randomly assigning moderation points based on existing karma was clever but… somehow the same, SAME five memes kept getting (Score: 5, funny) and the interface made it actively painful to browse through the comments.

> Reddit's very rudimentary up/downvote system, well, sucks. It lets the lowest common denominator rise to the top,

Which is why Hubski's solution is interesting. You're recognizing the quality of the content does not really lie in a singular post or link, but with the poster, in a general sense. There are certainly certain posters on Reddit who I know I can always look to for good content, -makes sense to have your feed populated by good content providers rather than up-votes from the crowd.

>You're recognizing the quality of the content does not really lie in a singular post or link, but with the poster, in a general sense.

Correct me if I am wrong but, isn't that how Digg used to work? I remember there were these few prominent accounts that had a lot of posts "promoted" and made the site worthless when they started posting crap.

Site needs some work, right now it feels more like HN (Similar visual style aside), just one big spread of submissions.

As mentioned, the great part of reddit is sub-reddits, Hubski needs some sort of greater way to sort out and separate content. The proposed following users doesn't seem prominent enough to me yet, though maybe this will change as the site grows.

Sounds just like Google+.

I've always wondered why these aggregation sites need up and down voting at all. Can't we just compare the number of times the link has been displayed to users with the number of clicks on the link?

This would measure the popularity of titles/headlines (and maybe domain names) but not of content.

I find there's nothing wrong with the open source platform, just a problem with a few of the popular pages. There's no reason to ditch the reddit platform altogether.

Ready for needing glasses? This site requires superhuman vision to be able to read size 4 font!

Hubski looks to me more like a HN clone and less like a Reddit replacement.

Reddit's beauty is in sub-reddits. Don't like the front page? Just unsubscribe from it, and subscribe to whatever you like.

http://forhiremedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/map-of-re...

The frontpage isn't some singular magical land that was the only one affected by the apparent degradation of quality, others seem to be following suit.

It's really up to each subreddit to decide what kind of content it will be filled with - frontpage or not.

yes, you can say reddit is what you make it. I no longer subscribe to frontpage and replaced extremely mainstream subreddits such as /r/pics with more fresh and entertaining like r/RedditThroughHistory and so on, and the experience is much more pleasant. yet, the decline of average submission and comment quality is noticable even in smarter subreddits such as r/TrueReddit. the digg migration put reddit in eternal september, first it was easily noticable only in /new (oh boy, going down there is only for hardcore users) and comments, now it's spread all over the site.

I've been a big fan of reddit for years, but nowadays, the only reason I don't get out is that if I happen to step by without my account I'd meet the general frontpage and that could be depressing.

The downside is that if a particularly good post in your favourite subreddit hits the front page the Visigoths are going to come in and leave stupid comments one way or another. /r/AskReddit is incredible because of its judicious moderation, but the same can't be said for /r/programming or /r/technology, for example.

What reddit really needs is a ranking engine recommending users, submissions and comments to you based on the users you've friended and the comments and submissions you've upvoted. Just take a quick approximation of PCA/SVD/eigenvalue/tachyon-polarity and let the users see if they like it.

EDIT: Another simple idea is ranking comment trees by their first few comments instead of ranking them just by their first comment. I'm going to read the immediate replies of the top post either way, and I'd rather get three or four good comments than one great comment and two or three crappy replies to it.

If you're yet to see /r/AskScience check it out ASAP. One of my favourite discoveries this year. The mods are generally pretty merciless when it comes to memepushers.

Ack, I meant to say /r/AskScience when I said "/r/AskReddit is incredible".

    What reddit really needs is a ranking engine
    recommending users, submissions and comments 
    to you based on the users you've friended and 
    the comments and submissions you've upvoted.

Do you realize the insane amount of calculations that would take?

For each pageview you would have to find all stories in that subreddit, find all the authors, find all stories you ever voted on, find all the users you are friends with, and somehow rank all this shit.

It will cost millions of dollars a month in CPU time just to run something on the scale of reddit.

Sounds like a challenge :)

First, this doesn't have to be for each pageview. Crudely, you want every story to have a vector in some giant hyperspace characterizing it, and every user to have a vector precomputed offline based on their previously shown affinities, and take dot products.

This is not necessarily easy, or computationally very cheap, but the payoff can be pretty big.

I believe LinkedIn runs something similar to this every night.

I'm not sure what you mean exactly, but hey, if you can pull it off, it might be successful.

Just think of the number of comments up/down voted every millisecond, and that's just one the dimensions. The scale of that matrix would be enormous.

how is it much different from the ranking engines netflix and amazon use?

In those cases, users purely receive recommendations for media/products. In this case, users receive recommendations for other users to follow as well.

You can calculate the "weight" of the movie for a given user once. The number of movies is very low, compared to the number of stories on reddit.

Whatever that guy is proposing is an insanely complex dynamic system.

I'm not saying it's not doable, I'm just saying it's very expensive.

It might be less complicated then you'd expect (at least one way of doing it): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaborative_filtering

The core idea is linear regression.

Here's Google's service: http://code.google.com/apis/predict/. Here's a commercial API service: http://www.directededge.com/.

Reddit is now a tree with only one level of nesting. What would help is making the subreddits a graph, and not have all the subreddits trunk in the frontpage.

Not only that, but multi-reddits as well.

I've just got a bookmarks folder full of my favorite multi-reddits instead of a single Reddit bookmark to the front page.

My Reddit bookmarks folder:

Front Page: http://www.reddit.com/

News: http://www.reddit.com/r/business+economics+entertainment+lib...

Tech: http://www.reddit.com/r/android+androidquestions+apple+bacon...

Music: http://www.reddit.com/r/bass+hiphopheads+hiphoptruth+jazzyhi...

Funny: http://www.reddit.com/r/AdviceAnimals+classicrage+comics+fun...

Other: http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism+coffee+dating+design+fitness...

Random: http://www.reddit.com/r/answers+askscience+announcements+bes...

Yup. Just unsubscribe from the popular sub reddits like pics, reddit.com and focus on technology, science, askscience and reddit is still as good as ever.

i like how art is classified as 'for fun' /sarcasm

Give users a basic IQ and personality test. Provide different content based upon where they fall.

Surely this won't make those considered stupid any smarter. Why shouldn't someone less intelligent be allowed to read and interact with an intellectual conversation. It's not that easy to group people in such ways.

It's not about segregation, it's about content promotion. Why should content-promotion algorithms be intelligence agnostic?

it's about content promotion. Why should content-promotion algorithms be intelligence agnostic?

Because a "stupid" person might find the same thing interesting as a "dumb" person, hence the upvoting model. People who are inclined to agree are just as inclined to upvote these items, promoting them to a position where other people can consume said content.

And a dumb person may not find the same thing interesting. Do you have any research to indicate one way or the other? If not, why take a position against the notion of intelligence- and personality-based content?

Incidentally, in a sense, that's the old OKCupid model, but instead of LOLcats, it showed you potential relationship partners.

If not, why take a position against the notion of intelligence- and personality-based content?

See also: "The King's New Clothes".

Why should they only use intelligence as their metric?

Where did I advocate using only intelligence?

What does IQ have to do with content?

Steven Hawking could enjoy lolcats and your garbage man might be an ardent reader of philosophy. Stereotyping based on IQ or profession is fairly stupid. Smart people can like dumb things and dumb people can enjoy intellectual pursuits. If you want to pigeon hole people into categories go back to a high school cafeteria.

Is it even possible to have a dumb person who enjoys truly intellectual pursuits? I'm not outright stating its impossible, but I'd like to see a plausible scenario.

You'll have to define 'dumb' and 'truly intellectual' first. One might define a 'dumb' person as one who is incapable of enjoying 'truly intellectual pursuits' (whatever that means). In this case, no it's not possible but it's also pretty meaningless.

The only stereotyping and pigeon-holing here is on your part.

Did you just "I know what you are, but what am I?" me?

Anyway, dumb and smart people do not have disparate interests. I bet you probably feel like you're in the smart category and you think that means other smart people think like you, but things like football, NASCAR and /r/jokes attract a wide swath of humanity. If I score high on my IQ test you going to show me nothing but "smart" pursuits? Chess, Go, Astrophysics? Bio chemistry? How about sustainable farming? Or animal husbandry? How about kinesiology? That qualify as smart to you? Or does hanging out with the jocks mean you're stupid by association?

You don't have to defend your statement to the death. You can just say "Geeze, I didn't think about it and IQ isn't really a good indicator for what a user may want to see as content."

Did you just "I know what you are, but what am I?" me?

No.

What I said: serve up content based upon IQ and personality. Your response, regarding garbage men, was classist. Further, you seem to have assumed that I am advocating some sort of segregation based upon intelligence.

Or does hanging out with the jocks mean you're stupid by association?

Please show where I have indicated any of the projections contained in that ranting paragraph.

You don't have to defend your statement to the death. You can just say "Geeze, I didn't think about it and IQ isn't really a good indicator for what a user may want to see as content."

Your maligning of my statements is offensive. Additionally, you have done nothing whatsoever to show that intelligence and personality quizzes won't lead to better personalized content. Instead, you have merely been highly judgmental and attacked me based upon your own (apparent) prejudices.

I am confused why you brought class into this discussion, but I mentioned garbage men because it's a stereotypical dumb job. Not much critical thinking involved in emptying trash bins into trucks. If you want to claim IQ isn't tied to being a garbage man I applaud you. You saw my point.

>Further, you seem to have assumed that I am advocating some sort of segregation based upon intelligence.

If you are showing dumb people a different set of content then smart people you have segregated them. I don't see how you are claiming otherwise. Perhaps you should expand on how putting them in two different areas of the same website is not segregation.

On to a concrete example. What does intelligence matter when a story like NASA's Mars Rover Opportunity Begins Study of Martian Crater[1]? Can you please score that story on the IQ scale? 100 IQ? 90? 125? Should only those with science degrees be allowed to comment? Perhaps only those with Ph.D's?

Will you segregate all religious discussion to people with low IQ and atheists kept away? After all, there is a negative correlation with IQ and religiosity.

>Your maligning of my statements is offensive.

Your assumption that dumb people only have dumb interests is offensive.

>Additionally, you have done nothing whatsoever to show that intelligence and personality quizzes won't lead to better personalized content.

I only claimed your assumption that IQ correlates with interests was invalid. Personality tests is closer to something I could agree with.

>Instead, you have merely been highly judgmental and attacked me based upon your own (apparent) prejudices.

I am not the one suggesting we put dullards in a virtual cellar because they aren't smart enough to care about a new HIV vaccine or space travel, which we put the smart people in the master suite but block ESPNs because smart people shouldn't be exposed to sports.

You suggested that content be associated with IQ. but have not put forth any explanation towards what such a result might look like.

1 http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/mer/news/mer20110901.html

I am confused why you brought class into this discussion

Are you kidding? Your entire rant was classist and bigoted. Theoretical physicists, garbage men, football fans, NASCAR fans, etc. You are the one who believes these activities split along intelligence lines, not me.

I am not the one suggesting we put dullards in a virtual cellar

Really? Because I certainly said nothing of the sort.

but block ESPNs because smart people shouldn't be exposed to sports

There you go again. Reread what you wrote. You have twice indicated that "jocks" and sports fans are inherently stupid. Why? And why are you holding it against me, when you yourself made that assertion?

You suggested that content be associated with IQ. but have not put forth any explanation towards what such a result might look like.

So, what, before making a comment, I'm required to research it myself? Maybe I need to build out an entire website, just so that you won't attack me. Is that how it works? Given that this is on a website for entrepreneurs, where unusual ideas are supposed to be valued, that's pretty sad.

You clearly have a chip on your shoulder about something, and I'm no longer interested in battling your onslaught of projection.

Oh man, thanks for answering nothing about your position. You obviously have no idea what your original comment would be manifested as.

Please answer me: What would a couple examples of content separated by IQ look like? And how is this not segregation (as you repeatedly claimed it was not)?

Here is me predicting your next comment is either "You aren't worth my time" or "You just don't understand what I'm saying." Go ahead and hide from your ill-thought out and intellectually prejudiced idea.

And kudos for side-stepping the concrete example I asked about. Really shows some spine.

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