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Comment by ajsnigrutin | Hacker News Reader

Sucide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

Usually, atleast a few other methods should be used to help, before deciding on suicide (with a notable exception of being close to a very painful, inevitable death, and just wanting to shorten the suffering).

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Without being at all patronising, you're lucky to be able to have such a binary view of mental and physical health.

There are so many non-temporary conditions that people live with that can lead to wanting people, very rationally, to speed up end of life.

Sure... but they should atleast try some kind of therapy, before deciding to end it all permanently.

What kind of therapy ought someone consider before deciding to end it because their terminal illness is excruciatingly painful?

Yes, this is the exception i put in the braces in my previous post.

But being physically ok, but having depression is something that can be solved by therapy.. or atleast should be tried before ending it

Studies of psychedelic therapy for terminally ill patients have had some super interesting results, there’s a section on the topic in Michael Pollan’s book How to Change Your Mind which I found fascinating. Seems there is a lot of potential for helping people deal with the existential dread and get more enjoyment from their remaining time with friends and family. Here’s an article for reference: https://nyulangone.org/news/mental-health-benefits-one-dose-...

That said I’m a Swiss citizen and knew someone with a terminal illness who used the “Exit” program and it seemed extremely humane and a positive thing overall and I fully support having it available to everyone in that situation.

Presumably most if not all people who end up doing an assisted suicide have tried one or more methods to ameliorate their issue before they go to the more extreme approach. Do you have some reason to believe they do not?

I still think there should be a human safeguard to verify that everything else has been tried.

A few questions and an AI box is not 'that'.

Please advise: what therapy could help the terminally ill father of a friend of mine? Stage 4 lung cancer. Talk to a psychologist? The only thing that "helped" him were large doses of opiate painkillers.

Yes, this is the exception i put in the braces in my previous post.

But being physically ok, but having depression is something that can be solved by therapy.. or atleast should be tried before ending it

What's wrong with large doses of optiate painkillers, if you're terminally ill? Addicition isn't a worry, certainly.

The side effects of most pain killers can also be extremely unpleasant. You'll have more time, but you'll be miserable or marginally conscious for most of it.

In case of opiates, what side-effects are you thinking of? Constipation is an easy fix. Assuming proper use and dosage, opiates are way safer than NSAIDs.

And they don't always work. Look up intractable pain.

That’s nice and all, but but in the real world, those things aren’t always available (for any number of reasons, not just financial). In the absence of other solutions, sometimes the best choice may be to end a life rather than continue suffering.

Curious as to why you see parent as lucky to hold a binary view, if you care to say. I would say holding such a view is unlucky. Perhaps I’m missing something important.

The use of the cliche "Sucide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem" demonstrates binary thinking, as though there is only one temporary problem and no compounding factors.

It's also a pretty shitty thing to say. It's designed to make people who may want to die feel worse about themselves by calling their feelings merely "temporary".

I was asking weego why they consider ajsnigrutin lucky to hold the binary view you outline.

Sure, but publicly, and I had a response (as I was thinking the same thing).

The part you didn't respond to is why they are "lucky" to be able to hold a view...

My guess is that if you have such a binary view of the world, you might have lived a simple or sheltered or privileged life.

Ah, I see, my mistake. I agree with your guess.

Suicide is a permanent solution. Sometimes it’s a solution to a temporary problem; other times to a permanent problem.

Suicide causes permanent state change. Life and all of life’s problems are temporary state.

> all of life’s problems are temporary state.

Not all. Incurable disease is just one example.

That’s such an absurd point of view. When the duration of the problems is comparable to your expected lifespan, it is permanent for all intent and purposes. Sure, an incurable illness is not permanent in that it has to end when the person die. That’s not a useful point to make.

Can you agree that there's some threshold where the time required to endure the temporary state is untenable?

How can anyone except myself decide what that threshold is?

Until one dies anyway.

So, what harm is it to try a few talks with a therapist, try to fix the problem, and if it doesn't work, you can still kill yourself?

Even buying guns in some states has a 3 day cool-off period.

Perhaps it could work with a much more extended cool-off period. Over the course of a year, the person needs to affirm they want to go through with it on the last day of each month. If over the last 12 consecutive months they have said yes 12 times, then assist them, otherwise no.

Yep, with therapy in between... Of course, the inevitable painful death being an exception, that can be done a lot faster.

Anything is better than AI in a 3d printed box.

That is just a silly quote/generalization.

As an example: Old age is a permanent, and worsening, problem. Why should one be forced to live to an old age where they are dependent on others, IF they don’t want to?

Many old people just stop eating

I’m personally biased towards hope. Meaning that I keep thinking that things will be better and that I will reach a point where things will be meaningful. I call this a bias because I can remember the past and how long I’ve been in this state of mind without it panning out—it’s a false hope more often than not.

If average people are anything like me then I would think that they are more likely to think that a permanent problem is a temporary one rather than the other way around.

What a neat slogan. Also misleading.

Life itself temporary, hence the death-is-permanent thing. Hence all things in life—pain, happiness, pleasure, suffering—are temporary. Suicide is just the shortening of all of these possible states (or potential states—for the hopeful). Thus a shortening of a bunch of temporary states.

Doesn’t sound as menacing and dramatic when you put it like that. And it’s equally true.

This suicide capsule concept is clearly targeted for people who have made a well thought out decision on their life. Heat-of-the-moment suicides, won't happen with rare specialty devices but common tools/environments/drugs/poisons that are found all over.

It would be a weird assumption to think that a person who carefully plans their suicide in advance, and orders a specialty device for it, hasn't considered options other than suicide. Most likely such a person has tried everything else already.

It's a good point about the rollout strategy. Is this a specialty device you must order? Or is there a row of them on display at the mall next to the massage chairs?

> Sucide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

This quote is supposed to be used in the correct context of the specific situation, *if* it's truly temporary. Not just as a generalisation.

And what of the excruciatingly painful existence that doesn't come with a near-term "inevitable death". What you're advocating is long-term inescapable torture.

You can also be against the act of suicide and for the freedom to commit suicide. The two ideas don't have to be conflated.

Sometimes the problems are permanent.

> Usually, atleast a few other methods should be used to help

I bet most of people who resort to assisted suicide in Switzerland have terminal disease or incurable pain.

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