Vegetable Oil for Lubricating Chainsaws (2008)
fs.fed.us
fs.fed.us
Bonus: when catastrophic hydraulic leaks inevitably occurred and sprayed hot hydraulic fluid over the hot exhaust, you would be rewarded with the lovely smell of a deep fryer!
https://www.pocomarine.com/shop/garmin-tr-1-biosoy-hydraulic...
A puddle was found under it; the puddle was cleaned up. The puddle came back. Repeatedly.
The data center management was perplexed. The internal as/400 professionals were stumped. IBM techs were called in. They assured the datacenter’s management that this couldn’t be coming from the hardware. The machines simply didn’t contain yellow fluid.
No leaks in the ceiling, no overhead pipes, it wasn’t coming from the chassis, no other hardware exhibited this weirdness. Food and drink had never been permitted inside. But it was coming from somewhere, because no matter how many times they cleaned it up, another puddle appeared.
When finally a camera was surreptitiously deployed to surveil the afflicted machine, it didn’t take long before the camera revealed one of the datacenter staff members was just walking up to it and urinating on it. No particular reason, just something he felt like doing.
If you have 0 ideas about what it is, and piss seems improbable, I could see the confusion
Or expose it to warm temps in a lot of industrial processes?
It's a distinction without meaning, urea based products like DEF end up smelling like pee/ammonia. Laypeople usually specifically compare it to a cow urine smell
*At least, it did until I shredded it.
My experience at low temperatures is that the difference is much bigger than in that test. A thin layer of sunflower oil takes a week or two to turn into hard to remove sticky goo, olive oil... basically doesn't seem to do that at all.
I started using it because I ran out if cutting fluid, and noticed no difference.
(It seems like I'm always being told to use this oil, or cleaner, when I'm working on a project. Before paying for the brand name, I always look up the MSDS on the product. Many products can be made at home with experimenting.)
Is this a compulsion common to paper shredders, similar to how every label maker must be stored in a container labeled "Label Maker"?
How long have you been off grid (or did the olive trees pre-date you)?
https://www.komatsuforest.com.au/about/sustainability
HE GEN II Natura is a hydraulic oil that is both biodegradable and a certified environmentally friendly product, biodegrading by at least 60% within 28 days. The oil does not accumulate in plants and animals and does not spread in ecosystems. The oil has a synthetic base with largely bio-based and renewable content and exceeds the certification requirements. The oil has minimal toxicity, is non-toxic to aquatic life and has been checked for allergenic and environmentally hazardous substances. HE GEN II Natura is specially adapted for use in sensitive nature areas as it is based on synthetic esters and is certified compliant with the requirements for environmentally friendly hydraulic fluid. Compared to mineral-based hydraulic oils, HE GEN II Natura has less impact on the environment in the event of an accidental leak or spill.
Komatsu SCO Natura environmentally friendly saw chain oil has vegetable and renewable content. The oil is biodegradable, non-bioaccumulative and does not spread in ecosystems. The product is also non-harmful to humans, animals and plants. This saw chain oil offers superior equipment lubrication and adheres well to the saw bar and saw chain, reducing wear and extending the equipment's service life. Moreover, oil consumption can be reduced by up to 50%. Komatsu saw chain oil is suitable for use in sensitive nature areas that risk harm from conventional mineral-based oils.
These foresters seem to have good experiences with it-
There's a rumor among cyclists that "3 in 1 oil" is bad for bikes because it contains vegetable oil that gums up. But cyclists will debate about oil for days.
Don't they accumulate in the body and act as endocrine disruptors?
https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/cfr...
I use boiled linseed oil and beeswax on the fingerboards of guitars I've built. Linseed oil is a drying oil which will polymerize when it reacts with air instead of going rancid like food oils.
Drying oils or mineral oil should both work for the job as long as you do not try to mix them.
3 in 1 is fine, but the main advantage of a proper chain lube is that they don’t attract grime and dirt as quickly
Definitely will debate lubricants for days, but no one who is in the industry uses standard WD40
> WD-40 is an American brand and the trademark name of a water-displacing spray
… and the definition of “water displacing spray” is “penetrating fluid”
It definitely is an oil, it definitely lubricates. But we normally name things by their primary purpose.
Clean and smooth. I rewax every week (200km), takes me 10 min in total, also a a convenient way to inspect and adjust my whole drivetrain, regularly.
And in a chainsaw, it's mostly wear you want to reduce. The frictional losses in the chain are low compared to the massive friction in the blades.
https://www.concept2.com/files/pdf/us/miscellaneous/MISC_MSD...
The closest thing I could find to mentioning vegetable oil was this thread:
https://umgf.com/three-in-one-oil-substitute-t37605.html
But the claim is without a reference, and the MSDS certainly appears to be the latest word.
I've used both the Stihl Bioplus (https://www.stihlusa.com/products/oils--lubricants-and-fuels...) and Husqvarna XGuard (https://www.baileysonline.com/husqvarna-x-guard-bar-chain-oi...) for a couple years now, and have no complaints other than the price. I do occasionally switch to back to mineral oil when I run out, so perhaps this has helped me to avoid problems.
There is still an ongoing debate on whether these are good enough etc. On one hand, some people swear by them, and non-toxicity is especially nice when it's going to be heated rapidly right next to your face. On the other hand, there are certainly quite a few recorded cases of things gummied up when stored long term. It appears that the additives do help quite a bit, but it's still a failure mode to consider, unlike synthetic oils.
After every use they get a soapy wipe out, rinse, then a one minute heat with a quarter inch of oil in the pan. The iron just soaks it right up so it’s all ready and greasy for the next fry.
Painting the pans with flaxseed oil leaves an uneven spidery brown pattern. If food sticks to the pan you have to sacrifice some of the coating. It wasn’t a durable solution for me.
Cast iron pans?
When you heat the pan you can see the water bubble out of the iron pores. I let it cool, wipe it out, and hang it up.
I’d expect your cast iron to become sticky / blistered over time, though I haven’t tried the oil you use.
Impressive estimate!
My 25cm wide cast iron of mine just absorbed 0.185g of sunflower oil.
Apparently that's a layer 4 microns thick, or 1500x less than what the quarter inch I put in the pan:
$ units '(1inch/4) / ((0.185g / (921kg/m^3)) / (pi*(25cm/2)^2))'
Definition: 1551.7849I use mineral oil in mine as I use it ~twice a year
Also, really dumb fact: you can make gallons of your own sexual lubricant for pennies. Just mix a teaspoon of xantham gum with a pint of water (and if you want to preserve the whole batch, 10 drops of grapefruit seed extract). The stuff you buy in stores is about 100x more expensive and contains potentially-harmful additives.
The only time I used such a thing was when I was a kid and I put regular machine oil into the chainsaw. My father never explained the difference between different oils to me. I will never forget the frown on the chainsaw repairman's face.
Admittedly my chainsaw is a small cheap electric one, but still. Unsurprising to me that it turns out it is ok to use what I have on hand.
It works just fine for general lubrication. Other things or canola oil not intended for human consumption may be better for different applications.
Don't worry I'm not running any saw without bar oil. Or rather, used motor oil, since I have plenty of that.
Largely resulting from milestones reached during projects like this:
https://portal.nifa.usda.gov/web/crisprojectpages/0214897-ag...
https://www.hoppes.com/hoppes-support/ho-sds.html
which is pretty vague on most products but indicates ignition temp of their "lubricating gun oil" is 410F so anything around that won't start a fire, at least. that aligns closely with popular frying oils.
in general even modern ARs can be run totally dry for hundreds or thousands of rounds, until carbon fouling stops them. so it probably doesn't matter so much. worst thing that would happen is you'd get a gummy residue or a bit more carbon buildup. notably, lower quality gun oils already pose those problems.
here's a couple of nerds trying it out with canola: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8nZWALQRgM
Is this quantity significant?
There are no doubt problems with the refined versions of petroleum but natural oils have issues too.
The right solution might still be to ban petroleum oils from this job. But it seems foolish to pretend they are any less natural than vegetable oils.
Refined petroleum does not occur naturally and is toxic to all life. Vegetable oils are produced by stepping on or chewing nuts or vegetables. There is no comparison.
Not really. Rapeseed/Canola oil in particular involves extensive use of solvents, bleaches, etc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cfk2IXlZdbI
Not all life[1].
[1] https://iscsales.com/item/55-gallon-oil-eating-microbes-lfs-...
Cyanide is also a natural thing. Is it compatible with complex life in this planet? No.
Natural occurrence is not a sufficient measure for compatibility in an ecological context.
Consider that chainsaws are only one of many polluting tools that people use in forests, e.g., snowmobiles, generators, of course cars. There are many non-petroleum pollutants as well, like lead ammunition and trash. I believe it’s a useful practice to reduce harm from each of these as much as possible. That reduction might come from banning them outright to small changes like using vegetable oil as chainsaw lube.
The opposite approach is requiring harm to be demonstrated by each of these small things in order to encourage or require change. This has gotten us roughly to where we are now, with much wilderness in the country despoiled by human practices.
All of us are better served by being conservative in this context: by intentionally doing the least harmful things possible, and looking for ways to improve.
I generally disdain the temptation to use computer analogies for natural processes too, but in this case your objection isn’t strong.
Exactly how to understand and intervene in complex systems is an active area of multidisciplinary research, not something trivial or remotely well understood.
My point is that restricting yourself solely to the particular set of things you can understand quantitatively with all the real world practicalities that entails is limiting. Other than that one word, we're in complete agreement.
In this case, we have two lubricants that are apparently interchangeable. One we know has potential downsides (petroleum based oils are known to be harmful to the ground when spilled; this is part of why we have laws against doing so); one does not. Pick the one that doesn't, since all else is effectively equal.
I just don’t understand why environmentalists sometimes get so indignant when asked about the effect size of the interventions they call for. There’s a million low effort lifestyle chances that would be better for the environment, it is a totally fair question to ask if we want to maximize impact
Both in programming and in environmentalism.
'The big issue lies not with X, but with Y, but Y is not my area/too big for now/etc. So I'll do nothing'
More transmission and hydraulic fluid leaks from logging equipment constantly.
Without getting into whether it's actually a significant pollutant compared to other sources, I think your estimate is considerably low. I'm usually worn out before I can cut for a whole day, but I've gone through more than 2 quarts in a day. And here's someone professional who says he goes through a gallon a day of bar and chain oil with a similarly sized saw (possibly because he's able to keep going longer): https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=46008.msg662...