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Comment by turminal | Hacker News Reader

Dead journalists can't close them down, but the US government can.

I don't think the US really cares all that much if Saudi Arabia cracks down on dissidents. It's only bad if Russia or China does it.

I think that remains to be seen.

> that remains to be seen

Oh man, for purely comical purposes I would love to see NSO actually believe that.

In principle, America could drop Hellfire R9X sword missiles through the cars of every NSO employee. In practice, would American politicians have the nerve to go to war with NSO, when NSO probably infected all their phones years ago? How much dirt do they have on American politicians?

So you think because NSO breached a few state department phones that they have the deep dirt on every sitting congress member?

You think the iceberg is coincidentally only as deep as what we've presently heard? That we didn't have the full story yesterday, but today we definitely do?

Well I hope you're right, but I don't think you are.

Well how do you know the NSO hasn't replaced the sitting US President with a very convincing android?

I mean, they are a very skilled set of engineers. You seem to grant them being able to hold onto very powerful secrets and use them for active blackmail. You even believe they've been operating actively against the US government for several years.

If they can do all that, then replacing the sitting US president with a very convincing android isn't much harder! It is just as likely as the situation you propose.

NSO is skilled at hacking androids, not making them. You know that; you are arguing in bad faith.

I can believe that a foreign hacking group, who can zeroclick the most widely used personal device to obey a remote control center, who sells this service to totalitarian regimes and to corrupt governments, has exfiltrated as much data as they can. They are careful enough to cover their tracks as part of the service.

What I cannot believe is you dismiss concern over ongoing security risks, however exagerated, by suggesting a head of state might have been replaced by an android. Please don't troll.

I doubt we will see convincing androids in any of our lifetimes.

How about this senerio though.

I heard our President yak about his accomplishments this morning. I was half asleep, but felt his voice sounded different. I thought maybe just hoarse, or I was wrong about his voice.

I was thinking about his appearance. I don't know if I would recognize him if he walked up to me on the street without the suit.

Ok the Hollywood script.

Joe biden goes into a hospital. He only wants certain Secret Service personnel around.

His boy, and wife, are tragically killed in a plane accident.

Joe decides he needs grieving time.

The year before all this happens the NSO finds a lookalike Joe Biden, and performs all the necessary surgery.

A few more weeks pass, and the switch is performed. The real Joe is gone. The fake one is in power.

Then China, or Russia, have control.

(I guess if there was suspicion--the FBI could perform a dna test though? I think someone did this in a movie.)

Watch the movie "Snowden" if you're actually in disbelief and not disinformation.

>You think the iceberg is coincidentally only as deep as what we've presently heard?

No, but I think the US intelligence agencies are fully aware of where they're hiding the iceberg and could destroy it before it rises to the surface.

> that they have the deep dirt on every sitting congress member

Not all but do you really believe that the NSO group wont have some blackmail material on at least some US politicians?

> In principle, America could drop Hellfire R9X sword missiles through the cars of every NSO employee.

The next step isn't to blow them up, the next step is to sue them.

I just assume the IDF and Shin Bet would like to be the only ones who blow up civilians in Israel, but I can't think of a single reason why the Israeli government would oppose an extradition request if they were presented with evidence of cyber-whatever.

> can't think of a single reason why the Israeli government would oppose an extradition request

Because they want to foster such companies, and not deter people from founding them by showing them that they will be extradited to the US?

> they want to foster such companies

If that's true (which would be disappointing when you consider what "such companies" means in context) I assume the Israeli government already have "entrepreneurs" ready to jump into that market if they haven't already. "Showing them that they will be extradited to the US" if they fuck up in a conspicuous and public manner that is problematical for Israel and her allies might be considered a win by everyone involved except the NSO executives involved.

Of course, politics is complicated and NSO might have powerful friends in government. Or the Israeli government might be complicit in some ways that they really don't want to become known. So who the hell knows?

> I can't think of a single reason why the Israeli government would oppose an extradition request if they were presented with evidence of cyber-whatever.

If an American company would get caught doing the similar, would US allow extradition request of those people to some other country?

…if they were presented with evidence that crimes were committed?

This is what extradition treaties are for. The specific laws involved and the evidence matter a lot.

> I can't think of a single reason why the Israeli government would oppose an extradition request if they were presented with evidence of cyber-whatever.

Except the really obvious detail that most normal countries won’t extradite their citizens? Israel loosened up their laws on this a bit after the Sheinbein affair, but extraditing resident-citizens remains a rather unlikely prospect.

> Except the really obvious detail that most normal countries won’t extradite their citizens?

I can’t even guess why you’d believe that. Participating in extradition treaties is the norm, not the exception.

All I can do is suggest that you look into this a bit more.

Really, all you need is a subtle suggestion to the Israeli government that the hundred billions or so dollars they receive from the US every year might be impacted by continued NSO bad publicity.

  > hundred billions or so dollars ... every year

More like ~$4B (out of a total foreign aid of ~$50B annually).

https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-military-aid-does-the...

that number is way off, and the money they "receive", is specifically for use with US defence contracts and deals.. Its like Disneyland giving you Disneydollars.. You can only spend them at Disneyland.. It is a way for the US military-industrial complex to stay afloat.. And it is a drop in the bucket for Israeli Defence spending, and would make little difference if they took it out.

Pretty sure it's not a "drop in the bucket" (somewhere around 20% I read?). There's also a massive opportunity cost when you consider the profit to be made from an arms race in the middle east should the US treat all countries in the region equal when it comes to arms sales. Pretty sure that would net far more for your military industrial complex than the long standing preferential Israeli treatment. It would also obviously be disastrous for Israel, so that's some serious leverage. (Note: In case you think I'm promoting this idea, I actually believe ANY arms sales to the region, Israel included, has been a horrible policy).

The US and Israel are in bed together for better or worse. It's actually really embarrassing that Israel has allowed NSO Group to operate at this level, and influential US politicians could destroy NSO Group in a heartbeat if they actually wanted to.

>(somewhere around 20% I read?).

its closer to 3%

Again the US provides comparable military aid to Egypt and Pakistan too.. NSO is not the Israeli government

In fairness, the net result of this exchange is still something like, "Disneyland gives you a free hamburger." And by hamburger I mean "tank" or something.

Well that, and the hamburger vendor buys a big house in the DC metro area. And everybody else's ticket prices go up a little.

But still, draw a control volume, and it's just hamburgers flowing out.

Only if you can find their remains

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