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Comment by uptownfunk | Hacker News Reader

I'm done with this WFH BS, need to get out of my house, the kids (I love them but separation make the heart grow fonder). I want to see human beings, talk, make conversation, see smiles, not communicate via text, slack, but human voice, human emotion.

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Agreed. Although I do enjoy not having to commute.

As for the suggestions -

Get a social life - For one, I'm not too keen to do that. Going to a bar is not really an option. I don't quite link to have a drink just for the heck of it. And beyond a certain age, I really don't feel like socializing as I used to do while younger.

Have a hobby - Well, most of my hobbies are not social hobbies. I enjoy software and tinkering around with hardware, but that's about it. I do like going for rides, hikes and treks but that's because I enjoy the solitude.

I think there is a particular aspect of social interaction that gets fulfilled at work. Talking about some small things, not for too long. Meeting people face to face whom you've enjoyed working with. Sharing work related anecdotes. These have a special place which don't quite get fulfilled elsewhere. And all the while having a clear line which doesn't get crossed is a relief and one which we take for granted.

Find a life outside of work.

Especially with kids this is easier said than done.

This is first of all so condescending and second of all so defeatist. Isn't it possible to have a life outside of work and still want to leave your house and see people IRL for the 8+ hours per day you spend working? Just because I have friends and hobbies doesn't mean I have to love working from home.

Go to a cafe

> This is first of all so condescending

It's not condescending.

Many people have spent years neglecting their home life and personal life in favor of work life.

People have been actively encouraged by employers to do this. But at the end of the day for some people pandemic was a blessing and others it was a curse and for most this distinction rests on how much energy people spend prior to the pandemic maintaining their non-office life.

Office life will never return to the way it was pre-pandemic. Absolutely for some people this situation sucks, but it isn't going to resolve itself. I've seen countless people in HN comments like this effectively waiting for things to go back to the way there were: they won't.

Things will change, and they will improve but if you're waiting for a return to feel good again, you will never feel good again. If you want to stop feeling bad, you need to actively start figuring out new possible ways to feel better.

Working on building relationships with friends, neighbors, members of your local community is a good place to start.

>Office life will never return to the way it was pre-pandemic.

I think this is absolutely right.

It will vary by company of course. But more people will be fully remote and, based on a bunch of different studies I've seen, in-office will probably be 3 days a week or so for most people. Now I would expect co-located teams to coordinate some but I doubt that the 9-5 everyone in the office world will be the norm at most companies for the foreseeable future.

I understand that you're trying to show the parent commenter a different perspective, but telling somebody that a comment is not condescending is unconvincing, especially when the statement is followed by an exposition of your world view.

Empathy is the opposite of condescension; if you want to show someone that you're on their level, and genuinely want to convince them, you should try to state their premise in your own words, and then show the advantages of your outlook.

The irony here being that this is comment is itself a perfect example of condescension.

Could you please explain what makes my comment above read that way? It was not my intent to be condescending.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, what you wrote to me here is absolutely dripping with condescension. Maybe we just don't agree on what that word means? In my view, writing the following to a stranger whose life you know nothing about could be a passable definition of "condescension":

> If you want to stop feeling bad, you need to actively start figuring out new possible ways to feel better. Working on building relationships with friends, neighbors, members of your local community is a good place to start.

the current situation offers an opportunity to increase leverage for knowledge workers , and i think for that reason alone, no one should ever return to the office.

I have one, a rich one at that, thank you, but 60+ hours in a room in my house, and the dehumanized nature of wfh is doing my head in.

If you're working 60+ hours in your office, you don't have a life outside of work. No wonder you hate WFH.

I did WFH for years prior to pandemic and found it much easier to work less hours. Spent many long lunches with friends, took time out of the day for personal projects, made sure to schedule remote meetings with old friends and former coworkers during the middle of the work day.

It's possible it might be that your current office has a terrible culture (most companies failed the transition to WFH). Realistically you shouldn't have to be working more than 30hrs a week, and not being in an office means you don't have to do any more "performance" work. It might be as easy as finding a new employer that has a more realistic sense of work life balance.

While I want to go to the office, this is probably good advice. We have to do more.

It's not about "having a life outside of work".

I have friends in several different social circles.

Some of us still desire a concrete separation between personal and work lives.

Not only that, but some of us find there are significant benefits and upside to being able to socialize with our teammates and even management because those work relationships are great resources later. Someone is much more likely to want to help you get unblocked if they've formed a connection with you before. Otherwise you're just "that other person working on that other project and since it doesn't block me from my work then why should I spend any time, despite having the prior experience to assist you"?

And that's just one example.

"Some of us still desire a concrete separation between personal and work lives."

I have work computer and a fun computer. Once the workday ends, the work computer gets shut and I don't open it again until 9am the next workday. Separation complete.

Yeah and I have a one bedroom apartment. I don't like being in the same place for 16 hours of the day.

Does the apartment have a door?

Are you not allowed to return to your office at all? At our company the offices are open but no one is required to return.

That was going to be my question. At my company, if you wanna come in for more brown-nosing ( or networking, or collaboration, or whatever they wanna call it ), you absolutely can. You just let your boss know.

The question is always whether the extroverts should dictate every aspect of company life.

> if you wanna come in for more brown-nosing ( or networking, or collaboration, or whatever they wanna call it )

I find this line of thinking, which is very prevalent on HN, to be incredibly toxic. As if a social creature seeking to be amongst others is something disdainful or pathetic.

I think there's a significant difference between social creatures that are just craving socialization which we can trivially achieve outside of work and wanting to specifically hang out with your boss every day. If you can't see that difference I'm not sure how to communicate it to you though, but I don't think anyone is calling anyone pathetic for needing socialization.

The apparent disdain for it is probably coming from frustration at being unnecessarily forced back into that environment where they'd rather not be, just like they used to be before COVID started.

You don't see a lot of helpful (read: condescending) advice columns titled "Dear extroverts: how to be more quiet and introspective." The less social creatures among us that pretty often.

Letting people work in the environment that they like sounds like a positive change for everybody.

That’s fine but it turns to projection when you try to force everyone to behave the way you want to behave. It’s not a problem if someone else wants to stay home but it is if they want to force me to stay home.

Letting people that want to, work in the office among other people sounds like just the same positive change.

Leans head in door, “Hey boss, headed downstairs for some coffee; want anything?”

I’m just a other-seeking social creature!

Seriously, the number of people in this thread who desperately crave an IRL opportunity to kiss up to their boss is staggering.

There is tremendous dissonance in culture between the rewards of ingratiation and the opprobrium of it. At the same time it is difficult to balance the difference between brown-nosing and being a normal caring fellow human being who is grateful to others. The example I gave is over the top (in my mind), but I assume different workplace cultures have different norms.

I know that it may be difficult to accept, but not everyone has the same 'social' needs. Is there a good reason to force me to drive 20 miles so that we can talk?

For some jobs.. sure. I am certain I can't be a butcher remote; not yet anyway. But if my job is done, my boss seems happy with the results, my basic question becomes, why can't I live AND work in my ideal habitat, which happens to limit the amount of people I directly interact with?

I was gonna go the Christmas party until omicron showed up. That was the extent of my social needs. More to the point, do I really need to be where I do not want to be? How does that help anyone?

Google itself has this policy. My best friend works at their Cambridge office and he frequently goes in person.

I work at Google's Mountain View office and I've been coming in for the past 6 months, around 4 times a week. Not a lot of people do, maybe 5%? (I hear it varies in other offices). I find the separation of home and work productive to me, so even if it doesn't change my actual interactions with people, which are still in video calls almost entirely, it's just much easier for me to concentrate and be productive like that. Plus the commute gives me some time to clear my head, call friends, listen to audio books and podcasts, etc.

I think we're similar. I know one person who goes in semi-regularly. It's good if you want the separation or just don't have a good working situation at home. It doesn't really help people who want the social environment of an office though as very few are going in.

Yes that is the case with us as well.

So go to the bar and do this? What does this have to do with the office?

Because bars are shit for socializing? No one here goes to bars alone, and the music is too loud to hear anyone talk anyway.

Someone finally said it.

I've never had the experience of talking to some random new people at a bar if I went alone.

The only times I actually got to socialize with new people was joining a pub-crawl meetup.

I have had lots of interesting conversations with random people at bars, but I have noticed that generally it is only older people who are comfortable with it. The last time I tried talking to someone my own age they just looked at me like I was crazy and then turned away from me without even responding.

Move to Ireland? This is incredibly normal there. No London UK also works for this.

Try breweries. I spend a lot of time hanging out at breweries with great beer, great food trucks, plenty of outdoor space, and either no music or relatively quiet music. People often have dogs, which are a pretty great conversation starter, too.

You live so close to a brewery that a trip to it doesn't count as a long commute?

Edit: I just checked the three breweries closest to me on Google maps... They just look like restaurant dining rooms? I don't know if people are comfortable with someone at another table talking to them in a restaurant.

Most breweries tend to be a little bit different than restaurants, particularly if we’re talking about the outdoor area. You’re much more likely to see kids running around, dogs, etc. More of a “backyard bbq” atmosphere than a restaurant. And in many parts of the country, especially places with high numbers of tech jobs, you can’t swing a cat without hitting at least one brewery.

Yeah, I'm looking on Google in the San Jose area.

Yep, it's actually a criteria I look at when I choose a house/apartment. It's a nice "third space" where community events often happen, where you can meet new people (easier before COVID), and where it's easy to spend an afternoon working or reading. Kind of like a park but with dedicated food, drink, and bathrooms.

I'm sorry, but it's very hard for me to sympathize with people citing a need to get away from their kids as a reason why I should be forced to commute for two hours a day.

All I was saying is I want to go back. I don't agree that forcing everyone to go back in is the right approach.

I know. I wan't necessarily commenting directly to you, but this reason has been cited by a ton of people who don't mind having forced office days.

Same experience.

You have the younger crowd who live with parents, have their own room in a apartment somewhere. Happy to jump on work and then jump instantly to discord and whatever. Like my friend below my apartment.

Then you have the older crowd who have their own house, Kids, family pet or two. Have a spare room they can turn in to an office.

And then theres me, a 32 year old who has a single bedroom apartment who likes separation from work and personal. Having my work laptop at home has been stressful because its always felt like I am at work. Having to use my personal space for work doesn't bode well.

Luckly, my office is open and I can now go in everyday. Even when I am the only one in the office I feel more productive then being at home. WFH isn't for me.

At least at my office it's only the young people that are actually coming in to the office. It's cliché, but the subsidized snacks, ping pong, etc I think are bringing people back where as I haven't seen a single 'older' engineer back in the office yet.

Really? As an engineer, as much as I love my home setup, my lab at work is WAY better equipped.

Consequently, I'm much more productive when bringing up a board at work where my office is optimized for software and is nice and clean, my lab is optimized for hardware and is goopy and dirty at times, and I have lots of space for both.

But, then, we also don't believe in the "open office" idiocy, so we put people in their own spaces with a door they can close.

Way to bury the lede there! I think if companies like Google were to say, "Hey, we're going to start requiring people to come back into the office, and we do mean office in a literal sense. Here's your own office" -- we'd be having a very different type of conversation.

Couldn't you just move to a larger and cheaper apartment since you don't have to live directly next to the office anymore? I don't understand, if the problem is your space, change your space. Maybe try that whole getting a pet thing. Even with the office as a social outlet I wouldn't want to live in a 1 bedroom apartment very long. Also consider using a separate computer for work and nonwork stuff, and turning the work computer off at a specific time. Once it's shut down, you're done for the day. You can give yourself permission to disconnect from work without forcing everyone into an office.

> Couldn't you just move to a larger and cheaper apartment since you don't have to live directly next to the office anymore? I don't understand, if the problem is your space, change your space.

Will you fund all my costs to move apartments? Transport costs? Costs to and from my social activities? I like where I am. I shouldn't need to move because upcoming generations doesn't enjoy office life. I get it, I really do. Commuting to work sucks, transport sucks, meetings suck but to ignore those who do actually enjoy being in the office is sad. I hate webcam, zoom, teams. I need real face interaction. It's an outlet.

> Once it's shut down, you're done for the day. You can give yourself permission to disconnect from work without forcing everyone into an office.

I disconnect by knowing that I can walk through my apartment door and be free from anything work related. Separation is how I disconnect. I like my own space, and it shouldn't need to be filled with work related objects. Otherwise my life will always be orientated around work knowing I have to have that one bit of space for a work laptop. That's not healthy.

> I shouldn't need to move because upcoming generations doesn't enjoy office life.

From what I've seen it's the younger people who mostly really want to get back into offices for the social aspect. Those of us who own houses in the country or suburbs are mostly fine with not driving into offices, not that I did it much pre-pandemic.

And I totally get the social aspect. With some trade events spinning back up I've really appreciated the opportunity to reconnect with people in person.

I feel like sometimes people miss that living close to an office usually comes with living close to other amenities like restaurants, grocery stores, etc that you could walk or bike to. So "Just move to a larger and cheaper apartment" is likely a complete change to the way a lot of people live.

I don't want to have to buy a larger house than I need just so I can supply my own office. We already have housing shortages, bigger houses isn't going to help that problem.

I feel like people who make comments like this have only experienced NYC/SF and the deep suburbs of those areas.

There are so many places around the world where you can live in a slightly smaller urban area, live down town, walk to everything, typically have a stronger local community and pay a fraction of what you do in a large metro for a bigger apartment.

I completely understand not wanting to move from a place with easy, walkable access to food + grocery + bar + etc, but there are a huge range of options for cities that you can easily afford a 2+ bedroom and be part of an active down town area.

> I feel like people who make comments like this have only experienced NYC/SF and the deep suburbs of those areas.

Agreed. I don't understand the false dichotomy of either ultra-dense NYC/SF or else having to drive 20 minutes to the nearest shop. That doesn't fit my experience at all.

I live in a small town (~10K people) surrounded mostly by forest and mountains, so relatively rural. This is in California.

But I can walk to just about anything I need (multiple supermarkets, pharmacies, hardware stores, many restaurants, movies, etc). On my bike I can easily get to the far side of town (about a mile away) for even more choices in restaurants and shops, breweries, pubs.

So it is entirely possible to have a house well outside a large city and yet have everything within walking distance.

As someone who's lived in a _studio_ apartment in a high-rent city for a decade, you have good points, but a lot of this is easier said than done.

> move to a larger and cheaper apartment since you don't have to live directly next to the office anymore

In the Boston area, this basically comes down to "either live with space in the middle of nowhere isolated from anyone, or live in the city core but pay $$$$$$ for a tiny place" -- and especially if we are discussing working only from home (so limiting that potential avenue for socialization), moving away from any other social avenues can be daunting. Maybe this is less of a dilemma for someone who has a family, since then they can just socialize with SO/kids/etc.

> Maybe try that whole getting a pet thing.

If only 99% of landlords didn't disallow pets...

> Also consider using a separate computer for work and nonwork stuff, and turning the work computer off at a specific time. Once it's shut down, you're done for the day.

On the surface, these are valid points, but they contain a few assumptions that can be challenging. For example: that your company is okay with you being offline for _16 hours_ of the day. How does that work if you've got an on-call rotation, coworkers in other timezones, critical products with low bus factors, etc? For example, at 11pm ET it is 9:30am IST -- not being able to respond to pings/questions/PRs from coworkers on your team who are on the other side of the globe can be detrimental. There's also the physical aspect -- if you are in the same (350sqft, in my case) room 24 hours a day, and you use it for work for 12-14 hours every day, even when not working, it's easy for the mind to stay in "work mode" despite trying to shut off work computers, etc.

> You can give yourself permission to disconnect from work without forcing everyone into an office.

I know this is in response to the post itself, regarding Google (delaying) forcing people back to the office. However, there might be some middle ground here. I have been going into my office one day a week for a change of pace (and to have _some_ on/off time via my train commute) -- but it is a lot nicer when other teammates join me in-office, to get some semblance that I'm working with other human beings for a change. I'm totally not on board with _forcing_ anyone to go in, but it is nice to have the option to coordinate. I have found myself missing casual after-work beers on Fridays -- even pre-pandemic, not everyone joined (those with families would generally leave to get home early), but among those who _did_, it really helped build more camaraderie and made the company feel like it was staffed with _people_ rather than just anonymous cogs.

> For example: that your company is okay with you being offline for _16 hours_ of the day.

It is scary that this could be controversial?

Most jobs in the US are 40 hours per week or 8 hours per day. So yes, you absolutely should be offline (from work networks & apps anyway) for 16 hours a day on weekdays.

Sure if you have an on-call week that's an exception but you should be getting compensated in some way (on-call pay in larger companies, or the lure of those sweet options (probably worth nothing) in a startup).

Don't work for free!

Tip: You don’t have to actually have a separate room, all you have to do is trick your brain into feeling like it’s another room. Design two completely different lighting schemes for work and off-work, and connect the lights to a switch to change between them. Use two different chairs. Switch to another keyboard and mouse. Reposition your monitor. If you have an height-adjustable desk, change it.

Idea courtesy of Vallejo B:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snAhsXyO3Ck&lc=Ugzl3DOl0s0oS...

Not a viable means for myself. I can hide my laptop behind my bookcase, leave it outside in the courtyard. I don't have space for two different chairs. I have dual monitors, I even bought mounting poles for my monitors to make it a larger area. WFH just doesn't work for me.

Living in my 350sqft studio during the pandemic, I personally have tried a lot of these "tips," but haven't found much success. It turns out the brain is pretty good at building contextual clues related to its surroundings. Even if I'm sitting at my "play" desk (different chair, different room corner, different computer with its own keyboard/mouse/monitor), playing a game, with the lighting scheme completely different, I'm still _physically_ in the same place. I've still got the same noise from upstairs neighbors, same surroundings, same deco, same food options, same _temperature_ even (remember complaining about offices being too cold?). It's not enough to kick my brain out of "work" mode, and as a consequence, I'm always thinking about work in the back of my mind.

This is of course all separate from whether you can actually physically go offline from work, too. If a Slack ping at any time causes you to reopen your work laptop, even if you have different surroundings, you can't really fully escape "work mode." If you always wake up immediately into dealing with work, your bed becomes a "work area" too...

I have found myself missing the work commute more and more. Granted, I had a pretty nice one (15min train, 10min walk; not spending hours in traffic), but the biggest benefit I'm retroactively realizing was the clear separation between work and home. Working on finishing up a commit? Too bad, gotta run to catch a train, and then I'm no longer in work mode. Thinking about that bug the next morning? Maybe, but can still allow some personal time in the morning because not really "at work" until the physical commute in.

I ended up terminating my lease and moving back in with my parents because I had no friends outside of work that lived in the area.

I ended up renting some cheap office space in the small town they live in to work from.

Most of the responses here seem to be focused around "your social fulfillment should be _completely_ separate from work". I've found this attitude to be very limiting. I don't know any of my current coworkers well at all -- they're all just 2D heads on screens and avatars in text chat. This definitely affects my work, compared to the _very same company_ pre-pandemic. Maybe for some people, the ability to work with others doesn't depend at all on being friendly with those people, but I personally find that important. Being able to grab ad-hoc lunch with coworkers -- including a walk to/from wherever, eating in a common space, talking about things other than work -- really helped strengthen the culture and the relationships between folks. Ditto Friday beers after work -- or going out after. Some coworkers can be coworkers _and_ friends.

Maybe this is different for folks with families (those who generally didn't hang out after work even pre-pandemic -- no judgment there), but for some of us more social single folks, I'm surprised at the vitriol here from people who don't seem to understand us at all. Isn't there some middle ground here? I definitely don't miss being _forced_ to go to work (sick coworkers spreading flu around the office, loud talkers interrupting focus time, etc) but on the flip side why are people so happy to be _forced_ to never interact with people?

If you don't have a long commute, don't have to work in an open office with a lot of people, it might be nice to go back. In my case, mandatory return to work means I'm commuting 6 hours a week at least and increasing my chances of getting covid.

That's cool. You do you. As long as you're ok with those of us who don't want to come in being there, then everyone is happy.

Yes totally optional, I don't think it would be nice to force people back in.

Same here, collaborating with remote workers doesn't establish a solid human connection.

And without that it's just not the same thing, to a degree that doesn't make it worthwhile for me personally.

So it's a solid no to working with remote workers if it can be avoided.

100% agree with you. It feels like it's super easy to lose the purpose in your work along with any personal connection. I love the flexibility of being able to be home if necessary but I don't believe it leads to the most effective teams.

Work for a company of any size with multiple offices and it's pretty much impossible to avoid. On a given day pre-pandemic I'd typically be on calls with people in at least 4 different offices plus some remote.

Of course, it's easier to have everyone on a floor or two of a building with a small company.

Maybe try a co-working space?

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