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Comment by dane-pgp | Hacker News Reader

> In Germany we have a constitution that protects all human's right equally.

If Germany's constitution allows vaccine mandates, then your insistence that it protects all human's rights will be of little comfort to the people who are forced to take the vaccination without their consent and in violation of their conscience.

At best you are saying "Having control over what medical treatments are done to you is not a human right", and at worst you are saying "Antivaxers aren't human". Either way, you are putting too much trust in a system that claims to protect human rights, and totalitarians generally manage to find a way to twist the law to justify what they are doing, whether the excuse is "military necessity", "medical necessity", or something else.

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In fact, germany had a vaccine mandate against smallpox until 1975 https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impfpflicht and we have one against measles, though the mandate only requires children and people in certain fields of work to be vaccinated (teachers,caregivers etc.) The German constitutional court ruled in 1959 that the vaccine mandate against smallpox is constitutional.

> the people who are forced to take the vaccination without their consent and in violation of their conscience.

Your imagination got the better of you here - nobody will be forced to vaccinate, especially not without their consent. Similar to how nobody comes to your car and forces you to wear a seatbelt.

Germany's constitution is quite clear about this, for apparent, historic reasons.

So, how is paying a fine (as in eg. greece) not a form of "force"? In one way, if you're rich, you can pay for your right not to wear a seatbelt.. i mean, get the vaccine, but for normal people, the current measures are basically them being forced to do something that they don't want to do.

The fine is a punishment, not a force.

Come now...

You won't be physically forced to, but you also won't be allowed to do most of the things we normally consider that people have a right to do unless you comply. That's really a non physical way of forcing compliance (like saying I'll fire you from your job unless you agree).

The article says that Germany is planning to make the shot compulsory, literally this article that these comments are ostensibly discussing, in the second paragraph, so I'm not sure where you got the idea nobody is going to be forced to get vaccinated, but the gaslighting isn't appreciated

You won’t be forcefully vaccinated. But you can be fined for not taking the vaccine and you can be restricted in what jobs you work in. That’s how it works with the current limited vaccine mandate for measles.

And how is that not forcing?

Because this is not forcing?

When someone is "forced into early retirement" do you think that means that police dragged him away?

Yep, police or a guard can drag him away if he will show at work. He cannot pay a $100 fine or take a shot and continue to work like before. :-/

I don’t think you are aware of the definition of “to force”. It does not refer only to physical force.

I'm going to stand in front of you and not let you into your home until you give me $100.

I'm not _forcing_ you give me $100, not at all. It's just that if you _choose_ not to give me $100 I will continue to stand in your way and prevent you front getting inside.

It's really disgusting. Some politician invented that "obligation is not enforcement" talking point and now all those tag-alongs just repeat it without thinking about it for a second.

An obligation that is not enforced is not an obligation. A decision that only stays voluntarily as long as everybody complies was never voluntarily in the first place.

I'm usually a very phlegmatic, law-abiding citizen but man, where does this love for newspeak and doublethink come from, all of the sudden?

But it is. All laws are "enforced" in some way, just because sometimes it's not physical force doesn't change that. As soon as there are artificially created "consequences" and penalties, you are forced.

> If Germany's constitution allows vaccine mandates, then your insistence that it protects all human's rights will be of little comfort to the people who are forced to take the vaccination without their consent and in violation of their conscience.

There is no rational reason not be be vaccinated. Anyone who refuses deliberately chooses to endanger themselves and everyone around them, and ultimately the majority is paying the price for the reckless behaviour of a minority in more than one way.

Mandatory vaccinations are an instrument that has been used effectively and repeatedly throughout history. It has also held up in courts including in the US where SCOTUS has argued that individual liberty is not absolute and finds its limits where its exercise can harm the health and safety of others.

It is not about rational debate or legal argument. Both are red herrings.

It seems you're not understanding the German situation. But also: consider that your theoretical argument made out of anxiety for some imaginary totaliarism makes, in today's context, no sense:

Triage is happening and people with better chances of survival (e.g. everyone vaccinated) are getting the beds. So already "antivaxers are treated less like humans".

I think I'd rather some people be vaccinated without their consent with a safe vaccine than have some people be infected without their consent with a deadly illness.

We know mask mandates, vaccines, and other medical interventions save lives, reduce transmission, reduce hospitalizations, reduce long term symptoms and long covid rates, and reduce deaths, and they may even reduce mutation rates. So the choice to vaccinate, that you paint as one of conscience and consent don't just affect the individual making the choice, but all the people around them.

Why?

I mean... we let people smoke and die due to that... why not due to covid too?

The vaccines are too weak to actually achieve herd immunity, so pretty much everyone will get in contact with covid, sooner or later,... some will beat it by themselves and some will, sadly, die.

If people want to take the risk of covid, why force them? I got vaccinated and I don't care if some people don't want to do it.

We no longer let people smoke in places where others are affected. If COVID would only affect the unvaccinated person, I’d agree with you. But vaccination reduces the risk of catching the disease and thus the risk of passing it on to others. If unvaccinated people would all stay home and enter voluntary lockdown, this wouldn’t be a discussion. But they do not. They get infected. They pass it on. In Berlin, there’s a recommendation to not engage in dangerous activities, because there might not be an ICU bed if you have an accident. Planned surgery for cancer patients is postponed, because there’s no bed for aftercare. They’re all taken by mostly unvaccinated COVID patients. If the unvaccinated would all voluntarily stay home and suffer there, I’d agree with you. But they don’t. They’re taking the bed that I’ll need if I get run over by a car in the street.

Vaccinated people get infected and pass it on too, what's your point here?

But they are far less likely to get infected in the first place and even less likely to block an ICU bed. If you look at the statistics for Germany, the regions with the lowest vaccination rates have the highest COVID rates and are transferring patient out because all ICU beds are occupied.

I am well aware that's the official story.

But I prefer reality, and I haven's seen any definitive proof that's the case yet, quite the contrary.

It looks to me like the more we vaccinate, the sicker we get.

Because the ICUs are at maximum capacity?!?

With unvaccinated people?

Sources?

Many hospitals in Germany are out of ICU beds: https://www.thelocal.de/20211116/covid-surge-the-german-dist...

I have been unable to find an official/authoritative source on vaccination rates among ICU patients with cursory search. Help for clearing this aspect up is appreciated!

> I think I'd rather some people be vaccinated without their consent

Read the book "Ordinary men" (by Christopher R. Browning). Normal people, like you and me, had "very good" reason to do what they did when they did it.

The vaccine does not reduce transmission; heck it doesn't even prevent infection!

This is really bad since vaccinated people can be infected and shed the virus without showing symptoms! You are far more likely to be unknowingly exposed to the virus from a vaccinated person.

The rest of your assertions are rather baseless and unfounded propaganda not backed up by science in the least.

If the Omicron variant is indeed as mild as the doctors in South Africa are reporting, Omicron is the path to herd immunity. Especially since COVID is carried by animals. You going to vaccinate every animal any human could come in contact with too?

This whole "you are affecting all the people around them" is the biggest lie of all and the biggest pile of utter bull $h!t in this whole fiasco.

Yeah, tag-alongs are always okay with other people being forced to something they themselves don't mind. Often they're even okay with other people being forced to somehting they themselves would hate. That's why they're tag-alongs.

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