When the FBI knock at the door you totally do the whole "no comment/talk to my lawyer" thing. But what happens next if you're actually part of an investigation is they hand you a grand jury subpoena (which they were going to do anyway, even if you just talked willingly, because they have already gone to the trouble of asking a judge to issue one and have it with them by the time they ring your doorbell)
That subpoena is likely to require you to hand over any digital records you have related to the investigation (you can't plead 5th on that) and turn up at a time and place to be interviewed (you have to turn up, even if it's on the other side of the country eg in the Southern District of NY in Manhattan and you live in SF Bay Area). BTW I don't think people widely realize the government has the power to compel you to hand over EVERY piece of material you have on a given subject they are investigating - eg search and share anything from every email you have ever received since you signed up for GMail in 2004, etc.
You can plead 5th during the interview but if you have material information (or are actually guilty) and knowing they have all of the documentation subpoenaed and whatever other evidence from other subjects/targets/witnesses, it will likely help you at that point to be cooperative via guidance from your attorney. Remaining silent at that point is just going to leave you at the mercy of whatever other witnesses/subjects/targets convey and their own conclusions from the subpoenas.
If you are on a visa or green card you almost certainly can't plead the 5th because they can leverage your right to remain in the US.
So, that's why people typically talk to the FBI. It's not at the doorstep when they first engage you, it's once you have been compelled to participate.
Related/useful: https://www.natlawreview.com/article/you-received-grand-jury...
Source: happened to me a number of years ago, although I wasn't guilty of anything. Lawyered up, cooperated, no further action. Wasn't pleasant.
IANAL, not legal advice
guidance from your attorney seems to be the critical bit of that - it's okay to talk, but with your lawyer present.
LEOs exploit this.
In what way would "fuck you talk to my lawyer" be helpful?
2. “The suspect conveniently had a receipt in their pocket placing them elsewhere at the exact time of the Y crime. It was the only receipt in his pocket! Seems suspicious to me. He plainly engineered the alibi.”
3. There's no reason you have to immediately begin demonstrating your innocence. It can wait until you have proper representation.
It's rarely the case where a receipt in your pocket is the difference between handcuffs and freedom. I'm sure they exist, but more often the decision to arrest you or not is not hinging on your answers to the cop's questions. It's already been made.
Anyway, real life example - police calls me up saying this number came up in an investigation, who are you and a few more other questions. They were obviously expecting me to cooperate cause they hadn't bothered to do the paperwork to obtain my identity which was tied to the number. First thing I did was say I'll call you back cause I'm driving, what's your name? So I could verify it was an actual cop.
When I called them back I said I'm not telling you anything until you tell me what it's about. Cop hesitantly starts giving a few bits of information and we go back and forth until my mother's town comes up (too small a place to be a coincidence) and the whole thing unravels.
Turns out my mom had been getting some weird calls at home and when she was out & about by a person who seemed to be following her. Because of her age and absentmindedness she gave the wrong number out of her recent calls list to the police. Hilarity ensues. Cop suggests I check on my mom, we genuinely thought she had some kind of attack of dementia (she was fine, just very embarrassed).
Cop also called my mom to saying your kid's a real hard-ass (but polite and correct)!
Anyway my point is - don't you think me lawyering up for this would have been absurd?
In this case you had a cop who is actually willing to go back-and-forth with you until you discovered what was going on. Absent that, you absolutely would be right to say something like, “without knowing what’s going on here I can’t answer any questions.”
Your initial example of “you look like a criminal we’re searching for” is way more fraught with pitfalls that can be avoided by not cooperating.
Also, I should be more “assertive” at work…
No!
An actual lawyer wrote an actual book about this (after he made that famous video we are all talking about). Refusing to answer questions can be used against you!
His advice is to collapse it to:
"I want a lawyer."
It becomes unconstitutional for them to continue questioning you after that statement. Do not decline to answer questions directly - ask for an attorney!
Isn’t this just hindsight bias? What if the situation wasn’t your mother’s absentmindedness but your number being found in the phone of a murder victim? The “back and forth” with the officer leads you to confirm that you know and have visited the small town where this person was killed. So they ask you if you have ever visited the window tinting shop where they work, and you say no. What you don’t know if an eye witness incorrectly believes they saw you there, which makes you a liar in the LEO’s eyes.
This issue isn’t “what if it turns out to be nothing”. The issue is that if it does turn out to be something, the consequences of not keeping your mouth shut are far worse than the minor “over reaction” when things end up being ok. Its like wearing a seat belt. You don’t do it for all the times you don’t get in an accident. You wear it because the consequences are dire in the case that you do get in an accident.
Then by talking to them you accidentally give them ammunition. "Yeah, I hated the guy, but I couldn't have killed him" turns into "the defendant told us that he hated the guy". Or you lie accidentally, which gives them another crime to threaten you with; "you had better plead out, because we have a whole list of crimes we can get you for".
If someone thinks you have wronged them or committed a crime do not engage them. You will not change their mind. You are not that convincing, and they will see your efforts as manipulative and slimey.
(My own first-hand experience with this was civil, not criminal. Someone I had never met accused me of something absolutely nonsensical and filed a lawsuit against me. I thought I could reason with them, but this just made things worse. I would have been much better to approach the situation as though they were dangerously irrational. Just don't engage.)
It's totally true that you can give cops ammo against yourself without realizing and you must be very careful wrt lying and saying the wrong things.
But there also has to be some kind of middle ground.
Don't talk to the police under any circumstances. You cannot ever talk your way out of getting arrested.
There is no middle ground. Watch the "don't talk to police" video linked in the thread. He explains that it is like a ratchet: statements can only hurt, it is illegal under the rules of evidence for your statements to the police to be used to exonerate you!
If you have watched this video, you might want to review this highly anticipated follow up several years later: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FENubmZGj8
See Miranda v. Arizona 1966 and the Fifth Amendment.
For a crime like this -- as serious as this was, with the damages involved, the company and its internal resources/practices -- he probably had no prayer of getting away with it and in a Dunning-Kruger-like manner, he not only didn't know what he didn't know, I don't think there's any way he could have known enough about his adversary's capabilities to get away with it long term.
If a criminal wishes to be successful in getting away with a serious crime without getting caught over their lifetime, that criminal must successfully thwart detection from all current and future technologies. I mention serious because those crimes often do not have a statute of limitations these days. I'm assuming a perfect law enforcement body that similarly makes no mistakes, so a "luck factor" weighs in, but given a (not too) high-profile crime with motivation, budget, competent investigators and expanding technology, I'll law enforcement is gong to rank higher in the luck category.
It's not enough to look at what they're capable of currently. Consider this scenario: A murderer with Type O+ blood (with other common properties) strangles a man with a wire in 1980 leaving behind only that wire as evidence. In the struggle, the wire also cut the murderers hand and deposited a tiny drop of their blood on it. Being that it was a small item stored for an open case and was well preserved, it's still there, today. Luck. Back in 1980, it was of little evidentiary value. Today, that drop has a good chance of producing a DNA profile. Has the murderer been arrested (not convicted) of a felony in the last few decades? They'll probably be caught. Did a family member use certain (do they all do this?) consumer DNA services? Their family might be found, which will narrow the suspect down to a pool of people. Forget drawing suspicions by getting warrants, because it takes so little biological material and you deposit it everywhere you go, the police just wait for garbage day or follow you around town, grab something that came into contact with your mouth and they've get a profile (which will be used to get an easy warrant for a blood sample to confirm it).
Budding criminals, are you storing all of your secret plans on your drive in a bullet-proof encrypted manner and ensuring that it is airgapped? Are you doing all of your secret research on a similarly configured device, but configured to ensure all networking only works via Tor? Are you sure you didn't make a mistake that couldn't rise to the standards required to get a warrant to image your drive/take your equipment (that's hopefully turned off)? That bullet-proof encryption is rotting, and 30 years from now could represent a small hurdle above plain text.
And what happens when the time required to investigate crimes is reduced further? "We'll get around to bike theft when we're done solving all of the murders." But what if solving a small percentage of the bike thefts went from "complaint" to "likely suspect" almost instantly if certain circumstances were right. For instance, imagine law enforcement could automate geo-fence style warrant requests (requests to get "people in a location at a certain time" from Gooble/Apple/mobile phone provider histories[0]) for every bike theft where the bike was stolen from an area infrequently traveled where and the time of the theft is known to within an hour. For any where the there was exactly one person logged, you have a person of interest -- probably the thief. Not enough evidence to prove a crime, but enough to scare some of the petty thieves into giving up more evidence through questioning (or maybe just give up). It's a stretch, on purpose -- but as technology make solving crimes less costly, less serious crimes will be prosecuted more frequently/reliably.
Full disclosure: My only credentials in this area are working in Corporate Security at a multi-national (large) telecom company for a brief stint and in a security/development capacity for most of my career; except for that brief stint, all of my work has been on the defensive/strategic side, not on the investigative side, and never with violent crimes of any kind. I simply enjoy security topics, in general, but if I've shown my ignorance in a few areas, my apologies and feel free to correct.
[0] Assuming this data is kept long enough; I am going to hazard a guess that it is a lot longer than most people think.
and to me it looks like somebody intentionally left breadcrumb trail leading to the guy. With cloud paying so nice these days nobody is going to risk that way for the paltry $2M (ie. less than 3-4 years earnings in Bay Area for the people like this). It looks like the stock price drop is the real "follow the money" trailhead, and that doesn't lead to the guy.
And given that it were about Ubiquiti customer databases - the value of [stealth] access to those customers may possibly dwarf those few billions of valuation drop - so even the stock drop may have been a smoke screen. I mean Ubiquiti as a target reminds me of SolarWinds.
Those comments back then is also interestingly predictive https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26692987 - having a fall back guy kind of absolves the company from architectural and operational sins which allowed the hack and pacifies the customers who otherwise would feel unease of being possibly hacked by somebody serious.
He should have been spending his time finding out how his PayPal account and home network got hacked, not talking to journalists accusing the company of not handling the hack correctly.
keyword is "evidence". Whenever a sympathetic person/cause becomes a target of IP-address based evidence HN is overflowing with posts that IP-address isn't an evidence :)
So, we have electric grid evidence that matches up with IP evidence, that matches up with Paypal account evidence. I’m not saying he is guilty or innocent, but lets not misrepresent what is being discussed. I’m saying that responding to chains of evidence by claiming that is what someone setting up a patsy would do, is a unfalsifiable conspiracy theory.