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Comment by ThePhysicist | Hacker News Reader

Slightly off topic, but I think bike thieves are becoming more and more professional recently. Here in Berlin many now use small cordless screwdrivers with a custom gearing mechanism that operates a bolt-cutter. With that they can even cut through thick steel-bar type bike locks in a few seconds, without making any noise. I saw that in a police report lately but I can't find a link with a photo of the device now, unfortunately. It's really quite ingenious from a technical point of view. It seems the only way to protect against theft is to ride an old bicycle.

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These days not having an e-bike is probably one of the easiest deterrents. Next step seems to be to avoid design bikes like Van Moof. And finally, have your bike look used.

Then again, my bike is probably not the first one they'll consider, given that it has a 70cm frame making it all but impossible to ride for anyone under 195cm (being 200cm myself). If you steal a bicycle you have to be able to sell it, and given that a lot of professionally stolen bicycles are exported to countries with lower GDP's and that there aren't that many (if any) countries where tall people are as relatively common as in the Netherlands that match that criterium, I am relatively safe I suppose (as long as I lock it to a barrier or bicycle stand).

I do wonder how often Van Moof bikes get stolen, despite their tracking features. Fear of theft is the one thing that puts me off buying one.

I had two stolen over the years I owned one in Amsterdam. The first one was recovered in about a week. The second was never found, but they replace it when they don’t find it as a part of that guarantee–which is why it’s actually a really great deal.

It seems like they now only offer this for 3 years, which isn't great, since hopefully you'd own the bike for a lot longer than 3 years. https://support.vanmoof.com/en/support/solutions/articles/44...

It’s interesting because in my 5 years in the Netherlands, the general opinion was the opposite of this: bike theft is such a common occurrence because everyone rides the same, probably stolen and resold, black bike that you should ride a new, design bike that stands out, like a VanMoof–because no thief would be dumb enough to go for it since it would be obvious where you got it (and more importantly, almost certainly registered/traceable vs an old clunker).

Funny anecdote, but the initial reason for us to all drive shit looking bikes was the reason that these did not get stolen so often :)

Not so sure your design / desirable bike will last long thou. See here (1) where an absolute unique Audi RS6 DTM was stolen WHILE being used in a film shoot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n53U_HlIs_Q (sorry, Dutch only)

> And finally, have your bike look used.

That doesn't help, we used to joke with an aquaitance of mine that it was a miracle that his bike still worked, and he used to reply at least it wouldn't attract the attention of thieves, until the day he got stolen.

Were you ever able to find your acquaintance?

The bike, that is what I get by not proofreading.

On the contrary, VanMoof promise to get your stolen bike back within two weeks or they replace it. Had mine stolen in London; they located it the same day and got it back to me the following week.

Combined with an AirTag hidden discreetly in the frame and I'm unafraid of locking it up basically anywhere.

for a fee https://www.vanmoof.com/en-US/peace-of-mind

but i could see a world where I own two of these and not even bother locking them anywhere, just constantly get one 'stolen' while i ride the other, and cycle (ha) between the two?

> We can only recover or replace a stolen bike if the Theft Defense system was armed and the Kick Lock was properly engaged when your bike was stolen.

They also recover the bike only up to three times in 3-year timespan. Still, sounds like a great service!

That sounds like two more times than anybody else would recover it.

True, I find the service more than fair.

Wow, how does a company manage that? GPS? How do they have a legal right to determine who actually owns it?

The only real protection against theft is not having your bike among the most valuable and/or least secure ones on the rack.

Most protection can be circonvented if the thief is savy and equipped.

We have had this level of professionalism in London for some time now. It's not necessarily true that you must ride an older, uglier bike, though this will work.

All that is needed is to be the least stealable bicycle in the rack. In my case this means two locks of different kinds. It's a big deterrent and they will move on to other, easier targets.

If you can avoid being the lowest hanging fruit, you will probably be alright.

Another tip: lock your bike close to more expensive ones.

This is the bike theft version of “I don’t have to outrun the bear/tiger, i just have to outrun the slowest other person.”

I had a bike stolen 10 years ago from an underground garage, they just ignored the locks and cut through the rack

Had 2 stolen so far, cut the bike lock off. I buy my bikes around $50 each or fix up side of the road ones. Basically disposable, given that I enjoy the process of fixing.

Professionalism in bike theft isn't so much about tools, but about organisation. Professional bike thieves will have a van, load it up with exactly the bikes they already know they can sell, and drive their load to the other side of the country (if your country is small like Netherland, that is), and sell them there. Or maybe sell them in a different country.

I've noticed that sometimes more expensive bikes simply don't get stolen while cheap ones do. I assume that's because of an easier market to sell them. There was a period when my son's children's bikes got stolen all the time, while my far more expensive cargo bike wasn't, despite it being only locked with a ring lock, and no chain. But of course a kid's bike is also much easier to pick up, and it had a very light lock.

In the Netherlands they won't attempt to sell them here. Too much risk with frame numbers etched in and other ways of marking it. The safest bet is to move them out of the country on the day they steal them; way out to Eastern Europe.

That's really interesting and completely the opposite to here.

In London, most stolen bikes are expensive (or expensive-looking) and they are primarily resold within London.

> All that is needed is to be the least stealable bicycle in the rack.

So true. Many people seem to imagine bike locks as an arms race between owners and thieves, but it's an arms race between owners and other owners. The role of thieves in that arms race is more like that of a judge than like that of a participant. Well, unless they refuse acting in that role and just pick up the entire rack...

Off topic, but this reminds me of that bit from Trailer Park Boys where they steal a rack. So good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODIkw4MAeVg

(language warning if you've never seen the show)

Yeah, if I lock mine up anywhere in London (even in workplace bike stores), I always use three (different) locks. Faff and heavy to carry but, touch wood, no-one has stolen a bike of mine yet in 20 years.

> It seems the only way to protect against theft is to ride an old bicycle.

I like this blog on that topic:

https://calpaterson.com/bicycle-threat-model.html

> One father I know had his primary-school-age daughter "decorate" his commuting bicycle with girly stickers and pink glitter. If anyone examines his bicycle closely he looks like a complete loon but I think his motivation is right: it's going to be much less appealing to steal when it's covered in Miffy stickers.

I knew a guy with a similar philosophy. He spray painted his bike ugly color.

If you want something less permanent, you can use some strategically placed duck tape and make it look like a beater.

Something like this? https://iamspecialized.medium.com/very-special-things-rust-v...

This is brilliant.

I also like that it's powered by a "Meat Motor".

Cheers.

Bonus points, he'll get to embarrass her when she gets a bit older with it!

This is a good idea though. Anything that makes your bike identifiable is a good deterrent.

Two (lame) lock stories below:

We inherited a bike with a cable bike lock around the handlebars. The local bike shop was able to cut through it easily with bolt cutters.

My truck came with a locking hitch. I recently forgot my keys and a family member pried it off with a crowbar in 10 seconds.

Security theater.

expensive locks and complex mechanisms also signal that says "hey, there is something valueable here!"

I locked my bike at th eoffice and lost the key. Went to security, they gave me a bolt cutter.

That was the first (and only) time in my life I used a bolt cutter and it took me maybe 30 seconds to cut the cable. Now it would have been 10 seconds because I know where to cut.

I would not say that thi sis security theater, it is to avoid the passer-by who would steal your bike on a whim. I have no idea what percentage of thiefs this is .

> Security theater.

I'm always amazed how the Lockpicking Lawyer on YouTube defeats any lock within seconds. I think the hardest one was a couple minutes.

If you want to lose even more faith in security, the Lock Picking Lawyer on youtube has videos of him opening/breaking into almost any kind of lock you can imagine.

https://www.youtube.com/c/lockpickinglawyer

In NYC you can occasionally see a nice Kryptonite lock hanging on a bike rack with one neat cut through it from a battery powered angle grinder. Nothing can stand up to those unfortunately. It really is just a matter of not leaving it alone for long enough that a well equipped thief can spot it.

Couldn't find the exact device, but this matches the general description...

https://www.kleintools.com/catalog/7-ton-cutters-crimpers/ba...

Rental bikes such as "Swapfiets" (swap bike, https://swapfiets.nl/) are fairly popular in NL these days. Since they're owned by a company, there seems to be less incentive to steal them (since I suppose you can't sell them to unsuspecting buyers in the service area), and if you as a renter get the bike nicked, then you only pay a token sum (€40-60) for a replacement. They also fix your bike for you when it breaks or you get a flat tyre.

The economics seem to work out fairly well, the bikes are good, you always have a solid working bike. If you buy a bike yourself, it might run you 200-300 for an okay one, 500ish for a decent one, but you never know if it will get stolen or not. And obviously the company prints money too.

They also have a beautiful logo, and branding in general.

Something like this i guess?

https://youtu.be/BXY_fqDBg5E

At least some bike locks are resistant to this attack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXoS_HB1I3o

My bike was stolen enough times that I gave up. I don't own one anymore.

I bought a folding bike, never bought a lock and that worked for me.

"It seems the only way to protect against theft is to ride an old bicycle."

Or move to the countryside, where you can usually leave your bike unlocked outside of the supermarket ...

And reading all the bike theft horror stories here, I was wondering, why GPS tracking is not more of a thing? It seems to exist, but might be hard to make use of in reality?

(because professionals jam them or remove them and the police is not too eager to do something about a stolen bike?)

In a city it won’t tell you which apartment the bike is in. You need to remember to charge it up: the solutions I’ve seen don’t have super long battery lives. And you need to pay monthly for the data connection. It would be cool if you could combine that tracking with an insurance policy that bundled everything together especially talking to the reticent-to-help police.

If you’re in the country just drive

There's a complete lack of enforcement for bike thefts (at least in the US cities I've lived in). Even if you have GPS coordinates that unequivocally lead to the thief, the police won't take any action. Maybe this is different in other countries.

With e-bike costing over thousand euros, bike stealing has become way more lucrative, attracting more and better thief ...

Erm.. my non-e-bike costs well over a thousand euros! But I guess e-bikes have made "normal" people consider spending that much money on a bike. People into biking have always been spending this much money on bikes although oddly it seems to surprise many people, even though they'll happily pay 10x that for a car that requires fossil fuel to do anything.

Yes and no. E-bikes start at 2-3k EUR and the norm is 5-6k. Obviously you can buy a road bike for 15k EUR as well but most will gravitate toward the 1-3K EUR range.

15k euro!!! What, is it made of carbon nanotubes or something?!

Clearly more of a fashion statement, than quality difference.

Well, those are pro models, and you pay the brand as well, but I definitely saw a Bianchi top of the line at ~20k EUR (before discounts etc)

Crazy. That's like a 10M dollar car, IMO.

Nah… 2k is already a good ebike with a central motor and big shocks. Your entry level commuter ebike is around 1k

My partner recently bought a folding ebike for 600 GBP and it wasn't even their entry level model. It is a great bike. 2-3k EUR is not entry level.

> Yes and no. E-bikes start at 2-3k EUR and the norm is 5-6k.

Absolutely no. Crappy ebikes start at 700, OK ebikes start at 1000-1200 and anything above 2.5k is enthusiast territory.

And these prices are still a lot higher than they should be, in my opinion. I posted previously on the issue - they are so expensive, compared to cars, while using far less metal and other resources, fewer IP concerns, not having all the homologation and certification burdens, being vastly cheaper to ship, etc.

I have to admit I'm not that into ebikes but these were the price I casually saw in bike shops. But maybe they were just showing off the best models.

In fairness, a car represents more than 10x the manufacturing effort. A 10k fancy road bike is going to be much easier to manufacture than the equivalent small 10k hatchback.

High manufacturing cost does not mean high value. A business is just finding something where the value is higher than the manufacturing cost. A bicycle has higher margins because it is truly a marvel of technology, while a car is basically just "yeah it will work if we throw enough fossil fuel at it".

A bicycle has higher margins because the volumes are much smaller. The engineering that goes into even the cheapest of Dacias is hundreds of times more complex

> A bicycle has higher margins because the volumes are much smaller.

Are you sure? There are more bicycles in the world than cars.

> The engineering that goes into even the cheapest of Dacias is hundreds of times more complex

Again, that does not make something more valuable. The engineering that would go into a lunar orbiting plant pot would be very complex, but has no value.

There are far more bicycles than cars, but 99% of these are very basic cost-efficient designs , probably sold for less than 100eur new

The discussion was about the engineering value of a 10k bike (or a 100k watch I guess) - it’s more of a luxury good than an engineering necessity

As someone who never owned a car or drivers license, and who has been cycling for her whole life: no, thousands of euros for a regular bicycle is not normal.

I didn't say thousands actually (also specifically said it wasn't normal). It's just that I own a fairly mid-high end road bike (that I bought 10 years ago) that cost more than €1000. I used to ride a road bike that cost around €800 as my commuter bike until it got stolen. The quality at this price point is definitely worth it, with diminishing returns above it. I would strongly recommend upgrading to a road or town bike at this price point as it's such a huge improvement and will last you decades.

I’d honestly consider 800€ already enthusiast grade, but I’m interested. What does your 800€ bicycle have that mine doesn’t have?

For reference, I’m currently using https://www.boc24.de/p/bocas-bari-trapez/217333/ (which I bought at 320€ on sale) with some changes (B&M 100 lux front light, seat post with suspension), and I don’t think I’d get any major improvements with other changes.

Due to cycling in city traffic, I need to be able to instantly switch gears at standstill, so a derailleur would be a downgrade compared to the hub gearing I’ve got, and upgraded hub dynamos would bring me just 2-5% more performance, which isn’t really useful.

Yours isn't a low end bike and this might be the price point for you if you aren't enthusiastic about it at all. I don't know a lot about town bikes, though. I prefer road bikes (even for commuting and getting around town with panniers).

Higher end bikes don't have any "features" that yours doesn't have. But you could also spend half as much as you did and still get the same features. Higher price points get you lightness and stiffness. This translates into speed or less effort, depending on your preference. You also get higher quality components that will last a long time or you can swap out and sell if you wish. Low end bikes tend to be disposed of as a unit as they are not worth taking apart.

But what’s that gonna provide for me? There’s diminishing returns beyond this point, the efficiency gains are in the single digit percentages or often only placebo effects, and I’ve never even seen a bicycle that stopped being used out of old age. A new coat of paint every decade or two, replacing the tires and brake pads every two years, and maybe the chain every decade, and it’ll run forever.

I feel like it’s just like people buying expensive sports cars, purely because they can, not because they actually need any of it.

Lighter bikes are more comfortable to ride - they feel nimble. Modern frames absorb bumps while still being stiff to allow maximum leg power to actually go through the drivetrain instead of frame flex. Disc brakes make an enormous difference if you have long downhill sections or regularly ride in the wet. Sure there are diminishing returns, but better components really are better, and not just 20g lighter.

High end derailers shift easier, chains have lower friction (especially in high/low gears), spokes and rims are more aerodynamic and stiffer, ratchets have smaller engagement angles, brakes require less force and don't overheat, tyres have lower rolling resistance and better grip, seat posts have compliance to remove chatter etc., And this is before you get into eg. MTB specific features like chain clutches and suspension tuning, or for triathlon aero bars, for city bikes pannier clips and built in lights, etc

> But what’s that gonna provide for me?

Nothing. Bike manufacturers and smaller builders are not trying to sell these bikes to you or to people like you. How hard is it to enjoy your "normal bike" and move on?

Some people ride their bicycles for thousands to tens of thousands of miles per year. They're going to buy what they want so that when they do ride, they enjoy it.

> What does your 800€ bicycle have that mine doesn’t have?

For that much money, you could afford... a Rohloff hub? No frame though

IMO, most of the real improvements are seen going from $300-ish to $1200-ish. Going higher doesn't give you more features so much as more quality and durability. In my experience, if you ride a lot of miles consistently on a cheap bike, parts will wear out or break pretty fast. Especially if the terrain is at least mildly rough, as found on most commutes and country roads.

Cheap wheels go out of true easily and before long are often too bent to be able to true by spoke adjustments. Cheap tires wear out fast and puncture easily. Cheap brakes wear out and go out of adjustment fast. Ditto cheap shift gear. I've broken pedals too, and I don't pedal all that aggressively. Really cheap stuff tends to be excessively heavy too, which can be a drag on uphills and when you need to carry it.

Yours looks like a perfectly fine commuter bike to me. I'm not familiar with the wheel or shift gear classes, but if it gets you where you need to go without wearing stuff out too fast, by all means no need to spend more.

Meanwhile, for enthusiast bikes, 10k€ has stopped being exotic. I do blame it on e-bikes, because enthusiasts will happily pay whatever is required to distance themselves from whatever the average consumer does.

It’s honestly entirely foreign to me, I grew up in an environment where everyone cycled, but that meant most bikes were somewhere between omafiets (old, used bikes) and very cheap mass produced bikes. To me a bicycle is a mode of transportation, not a sports device or a lifestyle product.

What would they even do with such a bike?

Like NFTs, the important question is not "what can you do with it" but "how much did you spend on it". It's a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good

At last those bikes are clearly in the subset of veblen goods where you need more than just cash to gain the status. A bike not ridden "adequately" (whatever that means) is like owning art without even pretending to know something about the art in question. You could do it as a provocative statement, but that would get old quickly.

Certainly not ride it to the grocery store. Why do golfers by golf clubs? Not for the grocery store. And yachts aren't routinely used for sailing to the office either. The big lure of the enthusiast bike is doing things because you can. In a good year I can do rides for hundreds of kilometers in a day, I certainly wouldn't want to do that on my omafiets (which is just fine for anything <5km). 2020 was the first year in ages that I haven't crossed the Alps at least once. And sure, you don't need a bike costing 10k for that, in fact as it happens the bike I prefer for those occasions is the cheapest of the enthusiast bikes that I own, but that's beside the point. How many people do you own that drive a car that costs 10000 more than the cheapest car that would be perfectly adequate for the driving they do? Chances are most of them don't even consider themselves car enthusiasts!

> I do blame it on e-bikes, because enthusiasts will happily pay whatever is required to distance themselves from whatever the average consumer does

I don't think that has anything to do with it - e-bikes are inherently more complex, more tightly regulated (e.g. they need to be tuned to operate legally in specific jurisdictions), and subject to EU anti-dumping laws which drive up the price [0].

0 - https://www.bike-eu.com/laws-regulations/nieuws/2019/01/its-...

Funny thing, I knew when I wrote my comment that they would be at least one answer mentioning enthusiast with their fancy all carbon fibber road bike that cost has much as a car :) .

While it i definitely true that expensive bike existed for a long time, enthusiast where rarely parking this type of bike in the middle of a busy city. These are the kind of bike who are always kept safely in a locked garage. Plus, the number of enthusiast who pay for this kind of bike are way lower. So not only is it more rare for a thief to come across this type of bike, they also might have an harder time reselling it, and reselling it is more dangerous because those bike are easily identifiable and the legitimate owner usually care enough about it to have made it registered.

E-bike are just plain more common, and most people use them for commute which mean they tend to be park in places that are more vulnerable to thief and are easier to resell.

My bike is protected by anti-theft aesthetics (tm). Also, parking next to nicer bikes with less secure locks. This really hit me when I got said bike from an auction, it had a cable lock attached to it, and when I got it home, the cable lock was gone in about 15 seconds based on comments I had read in a web forum.

Sadly, things have gotten to the point where I would not leave my bicycle unattended outside for any meaningful amount of time in any big city in the world. Lock or not. I even have stories of friends/coworkers having their bikes stolen out of protected storage in their apartment buildings.

> cordless screwdrivers

Do screwdrivers typically have cords? And if so, what for?

I guess a cord protects a screwdriver from being stolen.

Probably not a native English speaker. They mean a cordless driver/drill

Electric screwdrivers with not much more torque than a human hand can apply are pretty common and small. They spin much faster than I can turn a screwdriver and stop before they can strip any screw. With the right gearing and modification, I can see one easily cut through a bike lock.

https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=cordless+screwdriver&iax=sh...

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