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Comment by rahoulb | Hacker News Reader

As someone who has grown up (and learnt to drive) in England - I had a moment of sudden realisation in India.

For me, the horn is a warning sign - "get out of my way" or "watch out!" - only to be used in emergencies.

In India, the horn means "I'm over here", to be used whenever you're near another vehicle. Which fits with the statements on the back of the lorries perfectly.

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> For me, the horn is a warning sign

Here in Massachusetts, it seems the horn has only three functions. The first, a quick "beep beep" signals that you recognize another driver or pedestrian and are saying hello. The second, a one to three second beep means that the traffic light has switched to green and car in front of you has not begun moving within 20ms. And the third, a five to sixty second "beeeeeeeeep" means that you consider the other driver to have made a mistake and needs to understand their very, very low place in the social hierarchy. This third one is the most used.

Same stuff in Italy.

Worth noting that a "mistake" in Massachusetts includes not just things that are dangerous, but also such grave misconduct as stopping for a yellow light, going at only the speed limit, or riding a bicycle.

There’s something about being a motor vehicle driver that just makes bicycle riders very bad people

There's a lot of confirmation bias at work, IMO.

Some bicycle riders are indeed very bad people. They think they have the right-of-way in every scenario and will run red lights and act like the car drivers are the assholes when they almost get hit by cross-traffic that has the green. Drivers usually only notice the asshole bicyclists.

But in some cases, drivers need to get over the fact that bicyclists exist and understand that sometimes the actions of a bicyclists, while inconvenient for the driver, are the safest. For example, bicyclists do not belong on sidewalks. In areas with a lot of pedestrians (like downtown city blocks), a bicyclist is going to be incredibly limited in their speed on the sidewalk. In suburbs, a bicyclist on the sidewalk is less likely to be seen by a driver and is more likely to get hit by a car making a turn, especially if there are cars parked on the curb. In some states, it's actually illegal for bicyclists to ride on the sidewalk.

When they ride in the middle of the lane, it's not to be a dick. It's because there are dick drivers that will pass them and give them only a couple inches of space, which is dangerous. By riding in the middle, when a driver passes, it gives them a lot of room to move to the right if they feel the driver isn't giving them adequate space.

I think even to describe them as "very bad people" is quite the stretch. They may be a little bit obnoxious but running a red light as a car vs running a red light as a cyclist is completely and utterly different. Firstly the implications of running a red as a bicycle are typically just that other road users tut, it's very rare that anybody gets hurt, and if they do nobody dies except maybe the cyclist. Secondly it's that the entire traffic light system makes perfect sense for cars and other motorised transport, but only makes some sense for bicycles some of the time. There are a huge number of crossings where you go "it makes perfect sense for cars to stop here, but I as a cyclist basically only have to stop here to not upset drivers". IMO to reject and protest against the utter domination of our cities and public spaces by cars necessarily involves skipping traffic light systems that only make sense for cars. But doing it safely and with respect for pedestrians and other road users.

We have a fourth one - you're a woman or a non-white person and I'm going to lean out of the window and yell obscenities at you.

No, we don't.

Well as a brown person I can tell you it happens to me about once every three months. My wife and eldest daughter report the same. And my non-white and female friends agree that it is a common occurrence.

Anecdotal, I know. But still what my experience shows.

Around 1995 the Massachusetts driver's manual said something like "Only use the horn in an emergency" or "Only use the horn to avoid an accident."

I've found that most Massachusetts drivers abide by that.

> and car in front of you has not begun moving within 20ms

No... It's more like 2-3 seconds. But you THINK it's 20ms because you're not paying attention.

Here in southern California, we have those 3, but we also have a 4th one which is very important: the "fuck you for honking" honk.

If someone else has made a mistake or is on the verge of making one, and you honk at them to warn them or others of the mistake, they will immediately honk back at you, holding the horn for at least a second longer than you held yours. This is because, to the typical SoCal driver, they never deserve to be honked at, and how-fucking-dare-you do it to them.

This. I couldn't imagine driving in South East Asia without the horn.

Scary story: My cousin almost killed a cyclist once after moving back to Europe after living in Asia for years. She used the horn as a friendly message (or so she thought) before passing. The cyclist, not being used to ever hearing horns on the road, got scared, looked over their shoulder and swerved out in front of the car.

Poor cyclist but the anecdote is hilarious

Car horns seem to be calibrated to be heard by someone wrapped in a car, and are too loud for unprotected listening. Bicycle bells are closer to that range. No wonder the cyclist got freaked out.

The Ineos Grenadier 4x4 has a button specifically for this purpose (& because it's made by a cycling team & makes for good PR). I don't know how useable it really would be.

I don't think I'd ever use my horn to let a cyclist know I'm there. It's hard to do a friendly, quick double-toot consistently and, as you said, it's just too loud. It's more likely to cause an accident than just waiting longer to overtake. Horns are usually a rude thing, so they're scary to hear.

Similarly, on a bike, I don't really use the bell to go around pedestrians on shared paths. Pedestrians aren't usually in the mindset of being aware of what's behind them, so the bell just makes them jump. You also can't express the difference between a friendly warning and a request to move with just a bell. Again, it's easier and more consistent to slow down and take responsibility for moving around them.

(obviously, local cultures will vary)

As a cyclist, I find it hard. I tend to avoid using the bell for the reason you've stated (i.e. it tends to just make them jump), but equally I've found not using it gets responses along the lines of "Use your f**ing bell".

I don't have a bell, so I call out 'on your left', but you have to do it early enough that people have time to think about which side ks their left.

If you've got a freewheel, pedaling backwards can be useful; it makes a pretty distinctive, but not terribly loud noise.

I've found most everyone responds well to "on your left!" Many will wave and thank you, largely because most bicyclists provide no alert at all and instead just fly by (which is dangerous and rude).

I found it shocking at first in India.

But then I spent a month riding a motorcycle in Vietnam, where they have the same practice, maybe not quite as intense.

I realised it is more like a radar system so you know what is around you.

Also the larger vehicles have right of way.

Once you realise this the system starts to make more sense.

After I remember riding a motorcycle in Thailand and getting the shock of my life as a big jeep zoomed past me without beeping.

I really missed that extra auditory information source once it was gone.

> [in England ...] For me, the horn is a warning sign - "get out of my way" or "watch out!" - only to be used in emergencies.

That is not the correct use in England, especially not 'get out of my way' (emergency services' vehicles aside) - and it needn't be an emergency (uh, again!).

It's only supposed to be used to alert other drivers to your (non-stationary) presence, when it appears they haven't seen you or may not be afforded the opportunity - on a winding country road for example, less than two cars wide, it's common to sound it before a blind corner so that if you get one back you can both negotiate a careful passing, or the other car can pull over for you if they have the chance.

Which is pretty similar to what you describe in India really, just quite a different bar for when you need to warn of your presence!

Indeed. As a driver in the UK, I use the horn so rarely that i've forgotten how to make it work when I need it.

As someone who lives in the countryside and have multiple roads like you describe, I can comfortably say nobody honks the horn on blind corners nor narrow roads. Maybe it is like this on other English counties but I've not seen that to be the case when travelling either.

Official or correct usages aside, the more typical usage for horns in England are:

+ impatience. eg a car going to slow and the driver behind is a dick. Though more often you'll see drivers flash their full beams instead.

+ as a way of alerting another driver in an emergency. eg your pulling into a lane where another car exists because you didn't see that other car. This is basically what the GP was saying,

+ or a sign of unhappiness. eg if you cut someone up on the road, you'll likely get honked at. It's basically used as a gesture, like swearing at the other driver.

I have seen horns being commonly used on (extremely) rural Staffordshire roads at blind corners. It's definitely a thing.

The other usages you describe are indeed more typical, though.

Indeed, I've seen the horn-on-corners thing mentioned a few times in this thread and I think it's dangerous:

- If the road is hilly, there is a significant amount of rock and soil between you and an opposing car and the sound will be quite muted as it has to diffuse around the corner.

- If the other driver has their window up and/or their radio on then they won't hear it at all.

- People who are hard of hearing can and do still drive.

I used to live on top of a 4200'/1300m mountain, and occasionally people would do this and then think it was OK to cut the line. Please just don't, you're only disturbing the countryside and residents/hikers and giving yourself a false sense of security.

It also runs on the assumption that the only people on the road are car drivers. But you might get tractors, cyclists, hikers / runners, horse riders etc. Even people just casually out for a walk with their family. And a lot of these types of roads might not have footpaths either.

I drive quite a lot on single track roads in Scotland (i.e. entire road width can only handle one vehicle at a time) and I don't think I've ever encountered anyone using their horn like that.

At a blind corner, you just drive slowly - no uncivilised horn usage.

In the Highway Code, letting someone know that you're there is the only proposed use for both beeping the horn and flashing your lights at another driver.

Yes, it’s a bit ironic that the only reasonable use of a horn is often the least likely justification for honking by Western (or at least American) drivers.

As an aside, Japanese drivers flash their lights (both headlights and taillights) as acknowledgement for letting them merge or pass—like the dual behavior of honking a horn as an expletive.

That's common in the UK too. Rear warning lights that is, can't imagine when headlights would be in the right place for it; they're more often used by the other person in that scenario - 'after you'.

Here in the somewhat rural U.S., we tend to use the horn only when a driver isn’t paying attention when the light turns green and we’re behind them.

I’m in a city and over 90% of my horn usage amounts to “put down your damn phone; your light is green!”

Beware that flashing your highs in Japan can mean “GTFO out of my lane”, and some drivers get really mad about it

For flashing headlights, the highway code is so far out of alignment with the real world that it would be more pragmatic to change the highway code to accommodate it and properly define liability. Being predictable is the most important thing for safety and you can't be predictable while treating all flashing headlights as a warning.

That maybe so but common usage isn't aligned with what the Highway Code defines as correct usage.

Take lights for example:

+ flashing headlights on a dual carriageway or motorway is a way of telling a driver to pull across so they can pass

+ flashing headlights near an obstruction is a way of telling another driver that you're giving them priority

+ following on from the previous point, flashing back is a way of saying thank you to the other driver for letting you take priority (this is done after you've already started moving to make it clear that you're not trying to hand priority back)

+ flashing hazards briefly is also used to say thank you, albeit typically if a vehicle is behind you rather than in front

+ flashing hazards on a duel carriageway or motorway is a way of warning other drivers that you're breaking heavily (as break lights don't inform the spectrum of difference between soft breaking and emergency stops). At least in this scenario you are actually informing others of an oncoming hazard

I'm sure there'll be other colloquialism I've forgotten too

Same from my limited experience in China. You use the horn as you approach to overtake someone, change lanes into traffic, etc. to say 'I am here'. It in effect replaces the indicators in many situations.

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