Ask HN: How did you correct your sleep patterns? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: How did you correct your sleep patterns?

61 pointsbehnamoh86 comments

Ever since college, I've been used to sleeping very late (we're talking +2 AM). Sometimes I would even pull an all-nighter esp. for exams or because I was depressed and would keep myself busy online. I always thought if I say awake a bit longer I can finish this piece of code or answer this homework problem, but I always secretly knew that it's not efficient as I wouldn't make much progress late at night (my performance after 11 PM is almost 5%).

Also, waking up early has been almost a challenge for me, and I can't say how many opportunities I've missed because of that. I'm almost 30 now and I clearly see a huge reduction in my energy, yet I still sleep very late and wake up late.

There has to be a better way. As a kid, I used to be up for school between 6:30-7:30 AM and I would go to bed before 12 AM. I believe going to college changed lots of my good habits. Now I'm in grad school and seriously need to correct my sleep patterns. I appreciate any tips or help from my fellow HN'ers.

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I used to have the same problem. I used to sleep around 2-3 am. I tried everything from turning to a strict schedule to putting phone in a different room but none of it worked. Then read about Chronotherapy where you delay your usual sleep time by 3 hours every day for a week until you reach the desired time then you stick to it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronotherapy_(sleep_phase) Now I go to bed around 10:30 and it has vastly improved my wellbeing.

I had no idea there was a name for this. I tried this in college (during an extended college strike, so no classes). Starting from a place of extreme isolation and (situational/seasonal) depression, attempting to integer overflow my sleep schedule left me absolutely messed up. I saw the light through my window for an hour a day, and the only time I left the room was to eat at the cafeteria, if my waking hours happened to align with their hours.

In the end, I wrapped around too far and achieved nothing.

For someone like me, I wouldn't recommend this. Because if you're like me, going to sleep on time isn't actually too difficult, provided:

1. You put real effort into going to bed on time, and

2. You're not in a situation where you're spiraling and afraid of facing the next day.

> where you delay your usual sleep time by 3 hours every day for a week until you reach the desired time then you stick to it.

Could you elaborate a bit more on how this works? Are you saying you’re going to bed 3 hours later each day for that week?

The linked Wikipedia article mentions doing this with an hour offset each day (as an example) start with with Day 1 sleeping from 5pm to 12am which doesn’t make a huge amount of sense to me without additional context of why you’d start at that particular time…

Sounds interesting all the same.

For example if you usually sleep at 2 am, you start by sleeping 3 hours later at 5am then sleep at 8am the next day then 12pm, then 3pm after that and so on until you reach the desired time. Seems weird but it works wonders. You may need someone to keep you accountable and stick to the set schedule for the week though.

How does it work when you have rigid responsibilities during the week?

Work/kids/pets, etc.?

Well, it seems like you can't do those things when you're asleep... I suppose either you find a way to move those responsibilities to when you're awake or you can't use this technique.

Ok got it. I may give this a try!

You have to actually want to change to make it possible, so that’s the first step.

Obvious second is avoiding caffeine anytime after lunch.

Third, set an alarm on your phone for 30 minutes before you’d ideally like to be sleeping. When the alarm goes off, get ready for bed and then get into bed.

To get to sleep (tricks someone showed me in uni): turn off all lights so your room is pitch dark. Keep your eyes open as long as you can, even after they feel droopy. ‘Look’ into the darkness. Try to create an Elaborate story in your head with characters and settings. Build gradually on this story night after night. Each niggt you only need to work out a tiny additional detail, like what characters wear or say or do. The story builds slowly and gradually and you’ll start to trigger your brain to get tired through just thinking of the story.

Before long you’ll hopefully be sleeping at your target time.

regarding caffeine, I noticed that if I drink caffeine at any time during the day it has some effect on the quality of my sleep. Removing it completely has made a profound difference in my sleep quality. YMMV.

Totally. I probably should have put that in my opening post.

Can also recommend apps like Flux which dim your screen near bedtime and prompt you to go to bed.

The best way that did work for me is do not use alarm clock.

Setup a proper sleeping place first: a) it must be dark enough (if you close your eyes, wave your hand in front of your face and can see brightness changes, then it's not dark enough); b) it must be cold enough, and you likely need to have proper warm and heavy blanket; c) it must be quiet enough; if you have noisy environment, you can mask it by using source of monotonous noise; I've found, that air purifier produces decent enough masking noise; d) air inside the room must be fresh.

Then, take a break and allow yourself to sleep as much as possible without setting an alarm clock or having to worry about things to do. Your body will figure out sleep schedule automatically.

> it must be cold enough, and you likely need to have proper warm and heavy blanket

What's the point of this? Only thing it does to me is make my hands freeze as I inevitably put one outside the blanket.

I've gotten in the habit of reading for 30min-1hr before bed recently and It's been helping a lot, especially when I'm not in a good place mentally. It adds a nice buffer between whatever I was doing in the evening and bedtime. When I don't read I tend to end up lying awake in bed for an hour or two, ruminating on whatever the stressor of the day was (or worse, picking up my phone again to distract myself). Reading gives my mind something else to focus on while I wind down, and I usually find myself starting to drift off naturally after 30-45m.

Good once I gave up coffee.

One thing with coffee, the often touted ratio is that if you stop drinking it after 12pm and limit to two to three cups max, it won't impact sleep. While this may be true for some, it's not true for all, as we metabolise caffeine differently.

I stopped around 2 years ago. First 7 days was headaches 24/7 and then around day 9 I slept like I had not slept in years, almost like a child's sleep. After around 2-3 months my productivity and alertness was naturally restored.

In hindsight it was funny how I left caffeine to the end. I went through the following:

* Black out curtains

* Stop electronics at 7pm

* Magnesium

* Melatonin

* CBD Oil

Agree that the caffeine 'rules' about not drinking it after a certain time of day don't apply to everyone. I experience increased sleep difficulties no matter what time of day I have it.

Interestingly it does not seem to affect the initial falling asleep time for me, but causes difficulties getting back to sleep when I wake up during the night.

Same here. Although I can drink caffeine up until about 2pm, I normally never ever wake up in the middle of the night but drinking caffeine will guarantee that I do.

Similar with giving up caffeine. Once I’d got past the headache phase I’ve slept so much better since then. It’s been ~15 years or so.

Max one cup of caffeinated coffee a day if I go somewhere that doesn’t do decaf, any more than that and it is a rubbish night’s sleep.

Luckily never had to faff with the rest (blackout blinds, melatonin, etc) and can put down my phone and be asleep in 15 minutes although I do leave it in another room so I’m not tempted to “just check on something” when trying to empty my mind and get to sleep.

For me the real challenge was that, despite everything, deep down I really didn't want to go to sleep on time. Sure, tomorrow will be worse with sleep deprivation, but I LOVE the blissful peace and quiet of the night. My best and longest sleep is during the times when I can afford to not give a shit when I go to bed and when I wake up. But it's rare to be in such a position.

One thing that really helped me to keep a "normal" sleep schedule: 0.3 mg of melatonin 7 hours before planned bedtime. I think it was the Slate Star Codex dude who recommended this and, to my surprise, it worked pretty well!

By far the biggest positive impact on my sleep is reading by kindle with the warmth of the light maxed out. I get incredibly sleepy after 30m-60m and I keep reading until I’m virtually incapable of staying awake.

The best part is, it also works when I wake up in the middle of the night and would normally have a hard time getting back to sleep.

I would guess this won’t work for everybody, but for me it’s basically the only thing that works at all and it works every time.

This is my go to method as well, carried over from doing the same with paper books. There's something about getting the eyes tired (for better or worse) and mind active but distracted in fiction that helps me both sleep well and dream vividly. Other things help, but none of the standard advice works for me without either reading or complete physical exhaustion.

I've had a lot of sleep problems in my life. I haven't solved them completely, but I've largely controlled them with a basket of measures. I wear a sleep mask, I get ready for bed around the same time every night, I only drink coffee before noon, I drink the same amount of caffeine every day, I go for a walk first-thing in the morning, I limit my alcohol intake, I try to keep my room cold when I sleep, I don't eat really heavy meals right before bed.

I don't follow this religiously - I'll stay out later and drink with my friends. But doing this as much as possible, and reverting to the routine when I stray, has improved the consistency and quality of my sleep.

Take advantage of the Circadian rhythm. Your body reacts to sunlight. Go outside soon after you wake up. I haven't set an alarm clock in years, now I just naturally wake up around the same time every day.

Sleep is high-variance, so any single measure you take will be difficult to notice. But if you create a system and stick to it, your body can probably adjust to any cycle you want.

+1, I do pretty much all these things. Sunlight in the morning, and regularity of times has made a big difference.

> I only drink coffee before noon

For some folks that's not enough. I had to drop it entirely to recover my sleep fully.

I don't have anything to add to what advice has already been given, but I wanted to mention my sleep schedule which is opposite of most people's problems.

Going to bed and sleeping on time is not a problem. I can pretty much go to bed any time after 9pm and fall asleep in 5-10 minutes. My problem is with waking up. It's not that I can't, it's that I just naturally wake up very early between 5 and 7am. Even now, when I've been working from home for 2 years and I could have improved my life so much by sleeping in until at least 8am, I still wake up very early. I'm usually not even rested, and I feel tired all day. I really don't have much to do at that hour and my partner is still asleep so I just play video games for a couple of hours. There's thousands of webpages of advice for not being able to sleep or sleeping being able to get up, but I can't really find anything for my problem.

Personally, the same advice to manage depression applies to managing better sleep: exercise, engage in body/mind-healthy habits. My bed room has all the tricks too: LED lights taped over, black out curtains, a Home Assistant automation for simulating sunrise with Hue bulbs. It has been a challenge.

Secondly, no caffeine after noon time on a work night.

When I started my first job, I went to the doctor for a sleep aid, he prescribed trazodone 100mg. I was anxious about falling asleep and being well rested for work. I used it for a couple of weeks and it helped me get on track. I did not like the side effects of drowsiness in the AM so I stopped, even when I took a half-dose. I am now getting good sleep for the past half-year because I adhere to good habits, not because I'm cured. I think it will always be a challenge, so it's a matter of being disciplined

Lots of classic advice here on improving sleep. One thing to think about is that your actual concern is more about missed opportunities and low efficiency. You might be setting yourself overly high standards, stressing yourself out by not meeting them and affecting your sleep because you’re stressed.

I would suggest don’t worry too much about your sleep, and try to focus more on being kind to yourself. Be aware of your pressures and accept that you’re doing your best. Try to reduce your stress by taking on less. Focus on what really matters to you and say no to things that are less important.

You might find even with better sleep your efficiency and opportunities won’t be much better, so don’t worry about it all that much. Be kind to yourself and don’t expect yourself to be a machine.

Regular exercise, sleep mask, earplugs, no screens 1 hr before bed (just read a book), no eating 3 hrs before bed, no spicy food, caffeine, or alcohol 8 hrs before bed, in bed at the same time every night, dark blinds, blue light filtering glasses, flux/night mode on your computer and phone, pee right before getting into bed, make sure you have a quality bed+pillow+sheets+comforter that matches your weight and sleep style, meditate earlier in the day so you can deal with the busy thoughts ahead of time. You can try melotonin but I built up a tolerance very quickly.

If all that doesn't work, trazodone. Life saver.

Maybe you can tell, but I've been fighting for good sleep for >10 years.

I mostly stopped using caffeine and alcohol. I find that while I used to stay up till 2am left to my own devices, I now naturally fall asleep very early and wake up very early with quite a bit of energy. That was just my experience though, who knows how much it applies to others.

Something I do occasionally reflect on is that I started drinking a few caffeinated beverages a day when I was maybe 11 or 12. And then through my teen years and beyond I identified as a night owl. You wonder how much of that was literally just using a stimulant.

It's funny how we generally don't think of caffeine as a drug.

Caffeine is one of the three most commonly used addictive drugs on the planet

It's something I've always struggled with as well.

- Melatonin is a great, cheap, natural sleep aid. You should only need 1-2mg. Take it an hour or two before bed. I believe you're not supposed to use it more than X nights in a row; look that up. But you can use it to establish a habit.

- Getting good exercise helps. If you're not currently exercising, anything is better than nothing: do some stretches, take a walk, etc.

- If you live somewhere where marijuana is legal, some strains can be good for sleep, but it may be a slightly extreme solution unless you've tried other solutions. I have nothing against marijuana but I would try other solutions first.

- I will of course not insult anybody's intelligence by mentioning ruling out stimulants as much as possible, especially later in the day.

    Also, waking up early has been almost a challenge for me

It could be that your sleep quality is poor.

If you have been sleeping poorly for months or years, it can take weeks of good sleep to erase that. In the meantime you will be hungry for extra sleep.

Can also do some exercise in the morning. Once your body is in the habit of morning exercise it may anticipate this and wake up better.

If you have ruled out sleep quality issues, maybe stimulants are the way to go.

The main thing that sorted out my sleep routine was fixing how I wake up. In the end that helped me fall asleep in the evenings.

I have one of those Lumie wake up light and radio alarm clocks. From about half an hour before the set time it gets progressively brighter. Them at the set time the radio comes on (BBC Radio 4 in my case). Then a few minutes later my echo alarm goes off, by which time I'm already awake, woken gently by the light and sound.

You could go the IoT route and have you main room light slowly brighten and play podcasts or radio streams.

In the early days I had an electro mechanical alarm clock that did the job of the echo. I put it the other side of the room so I had to get up to turn it off.

For getting to sleep I realised I needed something to distract my brain so I have a speaker pillow. I plug my phone in and listen to podcasts. I use podcasts that are kind of interesting but which I don't care if I fall asleep to. It's enough to giv my brain something to keep it a little busy without actually being stimulating enoug to keep me awake.

The other thing is to stick to your routine most of the time.

However it's also entirely possible that you are naturally a night owl. Chronotypes are a well established idea.

My best sleep period is 5am to noon. Always has been. I only need ~7 hours if I can sleep during this period regularly. I have kids and 9-5 job, so that’s not really viable for the next 5-10 years.

The way I deal with this problem, is first and foremost, drop all screens and house lighting to 2700k at least 3hours before you want to sleep. I was expecting a difference when I started to do this but I was skeptical that it would help. It was a big change.

The other big one is no work at least 2 hours before bed. This includes anything that will keep you awake problem solving all night. I even had to give up guitar hero years ago since it was invading my sleep. Any games that may produce adrenaline are also dangerous within 2 hours of bedtime. Boredom is a huge motivator to go to sleep early.

30 minutes (an hour might be better). Turn off all screens and dim the lights to almost nothing. Change into pajamas, brush teeth, use toilet. Take your time. If I’m not quite ready to get into bed, I sit in my comfy recliner in the dark for 20 minutes.

I’ve added to this in the last 6months, no liquids 4-5 hours before bedtime. This has drastically reduced the number of mid sleep pee breaks I need

Not drinking anything for so long will probably make you dehydrated though, leading to other issues.

Sleep disorders are a group of conditions that affect the ability to sleep well on a regular basis. Whether they are caused by a health problem or by too much stress, sleep disorders are becoming increasingly common in the United States.

In fact, more than one-third of adultsTrusted Source in the United States report getting fewer than 7 hours of sleep in a 24-hour period. More than 70 percentTrusted Source of high school students report getting fewer than 8 hours of sleep on weeknights.

Most people occasionally experience sleeping problems due to stress, hectic schedules, and other outside influences. However, when these issues begin to occur on a regular basis and interfere with daily life, they may indicate a sleeping disorder.

Depending on the type of sleep disorder, people may have a difficult time falling asleep and may feel extremely tired throughout the day. The lack of sleep can have a negative impact on energy, mood, concentration, and overall health.

In some cases, sleep disorders can be a symptom of another medical or mental health condition. These sleeping problems may eventually go away once treatment is obtained for the underlying cause.

When sleep disorders aren’t caused by another condition, treatment normally involves a combination of medical treatments and lifestyle changes.

It’s important to receive a diagnosis and treatment right away if you suspect you might have a sleep disorder. When left untreated, the negative effects of sleep disorders can lead to further health consequences.

They can also affect your performance at work, cause strain in relationships, and impair your ability to perform daily activities.

for more: https://depressionals.com/parasomnias-sleep-disorder/

It took me years and years to realize it, but I'm very sensitive to caffeine and the effect lasts a long time. More than one cup of coffee a day, any time later than first thing in the morning, is noticeable in terms of getting to sleep. Obviously different people are different, and there's probably something to the argument that if you consume caffeine in exactly the same pattern every day, you will adjust to that as the new normal. But, don't discount the possibility, like I did, that a single cup of coffee before noon can actually be a real factor in whether you can sleep at midnight.

Also, having a baby - it gets up early so you have to, and it goes to bed early, leaving you exhausted, so you go to bed early. Health, wealth, and wisdom, here I come.

Another good one: learning to tell yourself that if you're lying in bed in the dark, wide awake, that this is still helping your brain rest and recover. I have no idea if that's true, but it's something of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

This helped for me and it's a phased approach. It assumes good to perfect general sleep hygiene. It works for me, I don't know if it will work for you.

Basically I have a sleep disorder, my entire family going back multiple generations are night owls but I inherited the most extreme form of it because the sleep disorder pairs disastrously with my particular strain of neuro diversity and my profession.

Melatonin changed my life at 18. It was the first time I ever felt "drowsy", ever, but it wasn't sufficient alone. If I had any work in progress in my life my mind would still work on problems and I wouldn't fall asleep. It's pretty well established that melatonin helps with particular sleep disorders and may only as well as placebo in many people.

The next step of sleep hygiene was using an OLED smartphone turned all the way down with dark amber text and FBReader to read mildly mentally engaging books that I had already read before, harry potter and other fiction books with a relatively low reading level. This kept involuntary mind racing from overwhelming the effects of the melatonin. This had a high level of success but it still required a lot of intentionality and would fail occasionally and usually when I had the most going on.

In my mid 30s I started vaping weed about 30 mins before bed, this works very well but I don't recommend it except in careful moderation, it negatively effects my REM sleep and lowers my naturally high creativity as a result, it puts an almost complete stop to my over night problem solving skills and dreaming which I rely on professionally due to aphantasia. I've found that by vaping no more than two consecutive nights in a row I can stay ahead of sleep deprivation without significantly damaging my mental acuity and I can function normally without having to sleep all day on weekends to catch up (poorly) on the weeks accumulated deficit.

I was the same as you, and I was recently able to correct my sleep patterns. Now, I naturally wake up without using an alarm. What helped me was watching Huberman Lab's episode on sleep: https://youtube.com/watch?v=nm1TxQj9IsQ I highly recommend it.

The key is light. Light controls your circadian rythm (biological clock), so make sure you get enough sunlight in the morning, and make sure to avoid light exposure after 10pm.

For more:

https://blog.mycircadianclock.org/light-therapeutics-how-lig...

https://youtube.com/watch?v=oUu3f0ETMJQ&feature=youtu.be

Somebody on HN once posted a link to Andrew Hubermans podcast on youtube which I found incredibly informative. It addresses a lot of topics about sleep health and hygiene among other things.

https://youtube.com/c/AndrewHubermanLab

Check out https://sleepio.com. They offer a variety of strategies to help you correct your sleep over a 6 week period. It helped me increase my sleep and create better sleeping habits.

Unfortunately, it does seem limited a bit by regions; your mileage may vary.

The biggest thing for me, which I haven't seen others mention is going to sleep when you feel drowsy as long as it's a reasonable time.

I'd like to go to sleep around 10 pm, but if I get drowsy anytime after 7 pm and push through it, I'm likely to end up not sleeping until midnight or later and not usually accomplishing much with that awake time. It's better if I recognize the opportunity and head to bed right away. That also means I had to have had my evening meal earlier and be ready to get into bed quickly.

Quality sleep is important too, if there's any chance of sleep apnea, you should check that out.

If you take naps, don't do it too late in the day.

Lots of comments already about caffiene; everyone is different but I've noticed lots of subtle effects on me as I pay more attention.

Regular exercise is helpful, timing during the day may make a difference too.

Going to sleep:

- I find melatonin helps me to be sleepy about 20-30 minutes after I take it.

- If I want to sleep better, I'll try to get lots of exercise, avoid caffeine within 8 hours of my hoped-for bedtime

- sometimes taking a hot bath or shower about 60 minutes before bed can help. Apparently it'll lower your core body temperature which can help with sleepiness. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S10870...

Waking up:

- I use a sunrise alarm clock to wake up, which is immensely more effective for me than just a jarring noise.

- I also drink coffee pretty much first thing in the morning; I have a timer on the coffee pot that sets it to brew right before my alarm clock goes off.

My issue was snoozing my alarm for hours which contributed both to poor quality sleep and being late to start work.

The solution was an alarm clock that makes you get out of bed and cannot be snoozed. I use Alarmy [0] and have to go downstairs and take a picture of our house thermostat every morning before it can be turned off. I'm sure there are similar apps also.

It was a horrible first fortnight, but after that it's honestly been the best thing I've done for myself in a long time. Getting up at a consistent time every day has had so many benefits.

[0] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/alarmy-morning-alarm-clock/id1...

Phone off and 1mg melatonin every night at 9.

If I'm in "work" mode by 10 and I don't want to quit, I set the alarm for 04:30 and lie down with an audiobook (preferably something that's reasonably dense, e.g. the Odyssey or Milton). Never takes more than 15 min.

A few things...

- Morning sunlight, I go for a 15 min walk right after breakfast, apparently the natural light helps reset your bodyclock (bright light triggers natural morning hormones like cortisol)

- Regularity. This is key. Try and get up at the same time every day. I have an alarm every weekday for 7:30am (it's off on weekends, but I usually get up at the same time anyway). And I have an alarm at 10pm, to remind me to get ready for bed. I used to hate alarms, but regularity will help your body and sleep-patterns in the long run. Alarms are really the only way to achieve this.

- Bedtime routine. I do a simple 10-minute breath meditation when I go to bed. I find it helps clear my head and get to sleep quicker.

Most of the current top comments are missing the "easy stuff":

1. Most importantly, focus on good sleep and don't moralize about when that sleep happens. Waking up early is not a virtue. Going to bed late is not a vice. The only bad thing is not getting sufficient sleep. Everyone is different. If waking up early is hard for you, then maybe... don't! This is especially true in grad school!

2. Cut out substances (especially ethanol, THC, caffeine, and any excessive sugar). You can add these back slowly, one at a time, once your sleep patterns normalize.

3. Get at least some exercise every day; even on "rest days" at least go for a decent walk or do some abs/yoga/etc.

You should look into CBTI, and see a sleep therapist (my insurance covered this; so I only had to pay co-pay).

In brief, the goal with CBTI is to force yourself to get out of bed at 8am (say). You can still continue going to sleep at whatever time you’re used to. So clearly, you’ll be extremely tired if you keep getting 5-6 hours of sleep. My therapist told me that I’d essentially hate him for 1.5 weeks until this keeps going. Also, no naps are allowed in this phase. At some point, your body will be so tired that you’ll just pass out at midnight.

A few tricks that would likely make a difference:

1) set a wake up time and stick to it - let yourself go to sleep when you naturally feel sleepy 2) turn down your lights and phone/computer screens in the evening and take melatonin at the same time every evening - this will help sync up your natural circadian rhythm to your desired time to be getting sleepy, naturally 3) speak with your doctor about sleep difficulties - you may have an undiagnosed sleep disorder or might just need help with building the habits of sleep hygiene

I'm 30+ and I just make insomnia overflow by not sleeping to the next day. Then go to bed at (target - 12h).

I never posted about it because it looks silly, but from many years observing I think the answer will always be very personal and rarely reproducible. So I'm posting it hoping someone will relate.

This is a correction btw, I don't do it very often. Just when the time drifted enough it would require a lot of "sleeping earlier" attempts, which don't work with me at all.

This works for me too. Especially because I have no discipline to get up but staying awake against tiredness is almost natural to me.

You need to adjust your circadian clock. Not an overnight solution, but exposure to bright lights in the morning for at least 30 minutes is what worked for me. Real sunlight is best, but full spectrum lamp (e.g. Happy Light) shining close to your face in the a.m. is effective too. And in the p.m. avoid bright lights, particularly blue light is helpful. I have yellow goggles and LED bulbs that I turn to red at night. (Neighbors have teased me about what the red lights means!)

For me a simple trick that worked is set alarms for sleeping instead of set alarms to wake up.

So every day at 9.15, 9.30 and 10 Alexa announces I'm reminding you: Get ready. I'm reminding you: get ready, and then at 10p it says I'm reminding you: final reminder and surprisingly that robot is effective to getting all of us into bed max by 10.30p.. even though I've spent my whole life sleeping after 2am everyday before this and nothing worked for me.

Try doing something physically exhausting.

Otherwise, if you're just hacking in the lab, you're going to be up all night. I think this is normal and inevitable. Even the fictional Dr. Frankenstein had similar habits.

My strategy has been to binge on a project and go all out, then recover with periods of no computer, just necessary emails. I use this time to binge on outdoors or gym. Sleeping 10 hours is a plus for recovery time.

> then recover

If you do much physical activity and train for it (I'm a mediocre ultra runner) you'll know that as you work the body breaks a bit through the effort and your improvements come during rest days and easy weeks when the muscles “build back better”. I find the mind has similar behaviour so if you've been pulling extra time for a short while you need to properly take it easy, not just return to normal levels of effort, in order to recover and be ready for the next challenge. If you've been pulling extra time for a long while, then you are at risk of burning out and this is even more important.

There's also psychological, not just physical, implications to hacking in the lab til late: recently, I've been dreaming about the problems I've been working on, and I think so hard about them in the dream that I wake up. :D As though the brain goes, "There isn't enough CPU for this; let's quit sleep mode so we can work on this with all cylinders." (Even if all I wanna do is sleep! Mentally pretending that I already fixed the problem seems to disarm things and lets me go back to sleep.)

How much exercise do you do in your week? Exercise and warm showers in the evening has always helped me sleep at better times and I feel better in the morning. Find books—Preferably physical—that are interesting to you and start reading around 9:00pm. It's a great way to wind down without looking at a screen.

I try workout at least every other day. Running, lifting, or even cardio at home.

I switched to 1 10-oz cup of black cold-brew coffee per day a couple of years ago. For a few years before that I was doing a 15-oz bottle of standard black coffee each morning. Either one seems to work fine for me, to the point that I can pretty much instantly go to sleep whenever I lay down.

Before that I was drinking diet soda all day, and I had extreme issues with getting to sleep.

The #1 way to sleep easier is to stay awake longer. Nobody has any trouble falling asleep after staying awake 24+ hours, barring extreme cases where something is probably wrong with your brain/hormones and you need medication.

So if I want to fall asleep and wake up earlier, I have one night where I force myself to wake up around or before the desired time. Even if I only get 3 hours of sleep one night. Sometimes I don't even get to sleep at all. Then I fall asleep early. Earlier than "normal", because I know I'm probably going to sleep about 12-14 hours.

Remember that it's just one day. All you have to do is wake up at say, 5AM, and stay up until 7PM. You can't take any explicit naps, but you can chill out the whole day - if you don't have any work and don't care about wasting time, you could literally lie on your couch watching TV for 14 hours.

This should instantly fix your sleep schedule no matter how bad. In less extreme scenarios where you find yourself slowly waking up/staying up later, set an alarm to get a bit less sleep one night (e.g. 7 or 8 hours instead of 9), to push your schedule forwards.

Other things I've found helpful are: regular exercise, not eating late, earplugs, good curtains to prevent light seeping in, no caffeine, etc. I really don't find just lying in bed, counting sheep, etc. helpful and actually find it counterproductive - if I'm not tired I'm not tired. Ultimately, the #1 way to fall asleep easier is to stay awake longer.

> Also, waking up early has been almost a challenge for me, and I can't say how many opportunities I've missed because of that.

Do you mean you missed so many opportunities that you lost count or that you're not sure if you missed any?

Unless you have a good reason to believe otherwise, I don't see why you'd miss any opportunities due to not waking early.

Reading this at 2am. The advice in the comments are great so far. I hope I get enough motivation to actually implement them.

I do biphasic sleep. Well sometimes it's triphasic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biphasic_and_polyphasic_sleep

What's worked for me is to just set my alarm for 7 am (or whatever time you want to get up) and forcing myself to get up then. For the first week you'll be a zombie, but then you get used to it and you'll get sleepy earlier. Sometimes it helps to take a bit of melatonin 1-2h before you want to fall asleep.

I tried a lot of things, but what really works is waking up early. You'll feel terrible that day, but you'll naturally fall asleep earlier and wake early the next day as well. It even works with your phone next to you.

If it's really bad, e.g. you can't sleep until 3, then just stay up until the next night.

Bright light in the morning is incredibly effective for me. I always sleep with the curtains/blinds open. And I'm investigating a bright artificial lighting system that comes on automatically in the morning for winter (those wake-up alarms tend to have pretty pathetic light output).

Look for hidden mold. For some people, inability to sleep at night is a reaction to mold in the home.

You may have a circadian rhythm disorder, e.g., delayed sleep-wake phase disorder (DSWPD) [1]. It is rare in the general population (<1%) but my intuition is that software engineers are overrepresented. Irrespective of whether you do, there are likely concomitant behavioral issues that are exacerbating the issue.

I struggled with sleep for years. I had difficulty falling asleep before 2am or so, difficulty getting out of bed, and any multi-day period without obligations (e.g. holiday) inevitably resulted in my bedtime shifting by an hour or more each consecutive night. Tried everything. Described symptoms to several somnologists, primary care doctors, psychiatrist, psychologist, etc. Last couple of years I saw improvement. What helped was:

- 0.5mg melatonin 7 hours before bedtime [2] [3]

- Do a CBT-I program with a psychologist

---

Taking melatonin near bedtime did absolutely nothing for me. Taking melatonin at 5pm was magic. Symptoms that had persisted for years evaporated within two weeks.

CBT-I is very effective for behavioral issues but it's not magic. It is expensive and take a lot of time and effort. Don't use a self-directed app or book. Find a psychologist who specializes in CBT-I. Insurance may not cover it. It will require a couple of months of effort and cost $2,000 or so. It is worth every penny.

Everyone knows that light can affect your circadian rhythm, but body temperature can as well. Cold = sleep, warmth = wake. Consider investing in something that can increase temperature in the AM. Might be as simple as a space heater on a timed outlet. Might be as sophisticated as an Eight Sleep mattress.

[1]: https://www.uptodate.com/contents/delayed-sleep-wake-phase-d...

[2]: https://lorienpsych.com/2020/12/20/melatonin/

[3]: https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/10/melatonin-much-more-th...

Dogs and kids (in that order).

Both need to get up at the same time everyday whether you want to or not. If you keep doing it consistently, you’ll have to go to bed earlier.

If not for them, I’d probably still be up til 3am every night. Now I can’t physically do it anymore or I’m a wreck for a week.

Absolute obedience to the alarm clock: when it rings (early) in the morning just jump out of the bed, when it rings (early) in the evening just stop everything and go to bed.

Waking up every day at the same time, including week-end and holidays, is the secret to excellent sleep patterns.

Good luck.

The trick of jumping out of bed the second you hear the alarm does seem to work for me too. It's only hard the first few days.

Sleep at same time every night no matter what. Thirty mins in a dark bedroom pillow talk with wife before going falling asleep. Key being same time and dark before sleep. Also, no electronics in room except alarm clock. Nothing else, ever.

Dont try to go to bed earlier, wake up earlier. Youll get tired and therefore want to go to bed earlier. But youll be tired for some days until you get used to it, so dont do it in a stressfull time. Holidays would be optimal

I avoided playing word games (like scrabble) on my phone before bed. I heard that it keeps the logic part of your brain awake so I just stuck with visual puzzlers.

No idea if it's true I just still avoid word games before bed.

Getting up and out of bed at the same time every day no matter what is the main thing. Also, for me at least, I have two windows where I fall asleep easily, after midnight, or really early, around 8:30 pm.

CBTI is incredibly effective for all kinds of sleeping issues but oh man does it suck for the first two weeks.

It's not very sophisticated but you really need to be motivated to stick with the plan.

0. Start listening to the Huberman Lab Podcast

1. Turn off overhead light at 9pm

2. Wake at the same time each morning and go outside to view natural light.

What worked well for me after vacations when I was younger: get up early and suffer, repeat until you can sleep early.

Correct your circadian rhythm.

This includes correcting your meal patterns and the times you are exposed to sunlight.

I quit caffeine and alcohol, exercised daily, and took melatonin every night for about six months.

Sobriety, ritual, and purpose for me. No particular order.

Fasting. 3 Days. Just Water and salt.

Melatonin and SR9009 can be used to hard set your circadian rhythm. Checkout Leo and Longevity on youtube.

Huberman Lab. Listen to episodes on sleep.

TLDR, get ambulatory ASAP and direct sunlight in eyes as early as possible. Exercise in the AM. Watch the sun set outside.

Ever wonder why you sleep so well camping? I don’t have the reference on hand but iirc in an episode about sleep on the huberman lab, a study had fully reset a group with chronic sleep problems in just 2 days of camping. Go figure.

Had a really long post typed up that ended up being to personal. So instead I am posting this alternate version.

Up until I reached high school I had a wonderful sleep schedule. Once I entered high school is when my sleep schedule started to transition. No longer was sleep guaranteed. Failure to quickly fall asleep became the norm. This led to many sleepless nights and tired days at school.

After high school I was able to embrace my new sleep schedule by working second and/or third shift jobs. After a few years I started a new job that I absolutely loved. A job which had a fascinating rotating work schedule. Here is where the fun begins.

16 hours on call followed by 12 hours off call every day for 2 weeks. Then 4 days off. Rinse and repeat. Now here is where the dragons be. I could be on call for 15+ hours and not receive a call in that entire time. Then just before the shift ends a call is received. This could result in 10 more hours added to the work day. This could also happen at the end of a 2 week run too.

I mentioned I loved that job right? Must have. Kept it for over 20 years and utterly destroyed my social and sleep schedules completely in the process. It was 5 years ago that I realized and acknowledged my issues with my revolving work schedule and the havoc it was causing to my sleep and social schedules. Since then I have tried a lot of different things to aid me in my quest for a better sleep routine. Some helped, most did not.

My sleep and awake schedules are by no means perfect now, I can sometimes get distracted by a new shiny and mess up my sleep schedule, but overall they are better than they were. Barring any deviations of my own the following routines allow me to have predictable schedules.

Bedtime routine; One hour before laying down.

Shutdown any of the following devices if they were powered on. Desktop computer, tablet, game console(s), and/or television. Cellphone is put into do not disturb mode. Fan in bedroom is turned on and bed covers are pulled back to cool down pillows and bed. Dimming sequence for bedroom lights is initiated. Take care of bathroom related needs.

Bedtime routine; Thirty minutes before going to bed.

Light stretches and neck rolls to loosen up. After 10 minutes proceed to next step. Go to kitchen and get a drink to take to the bedroom. Shut bedroom door and get into bed. Start classical music playlist which also finishes the dimming process and shuts off the bedroom lights. As I lay in bed I complete the following (possibly bizarre) routine that I learned somewhere (where I do not remember).

I address my body section by section and say goodnight to each.

Example: "Goodnight, feet" and then I wiggle them for a bit to release tension and prepare for sleep. Same for my legs, torso, arms, neck, and head. Once completed I pull up the covers and close my eyes. Next I say "Computer, goodnight" and my 2 hour sleep playlist (currently mountain streams) is started. Very, very rarely am I awake long enough to reach the end of the playlist.

This works for me as long as I stick to it. If I deviate all is left to chance, so I try very hard to not deviate.

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In short. Repetition and routine. What that may end up being for you I do not know. I do however wish you nothing but the best in your quest.

How about getting up at 07:00 and going to bed before 10:00 for a while?

Another solution would be to have a child, but that would be irresponsible given the state of the future.

It doesn't matter what the future is like if there's no one there to enjoy it.

Also following the suggested logic (fewer children = better for our biosphere) bring the danger of idiocracy-like future ;)

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