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Comment by ayngg | Hacker News Reader

It has been interesting watching the concept of Black Friday (and cyber monday) evolve over the past 20 or so years from being mostly an "American big box retailer dumping excess stock" thing to "oh boy its black Friday, time to go buy stuff!" thing. The entire event has basically been undeservingly co-opted by everyone looking to cash in on hype over an event that basically doesn't even resemble what made it a thing in the first place.

Just like how for singles day in Asia, retailers shamelessly just jack prices up beforehand to make their sale prices look like discounts. These events seem more about whipping the naive mainstream consumer into a consumption frenzy than having real deals to be excited about. While those deals still exist, they are like nuggets of gold that you have to sift through the noise to find.

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>Just like how for singles day in Asia, retailers shamelessly just jack prices up beforehand to make their sale prices look like discounts.

This would be illegal in Denmark https://www.forbrugerombudsmanden.dk/hvad-gaelder/markedsfoe...

English

>If an item, for example, has cost DKK 1,000 throughout the year, and it is set up to DKK 1,500 for 6 weeks and then comes on “sale” for DKK 1,000 again, this is misleading, which is illegal.

obviously you can do stuff like set the price up for a longer period to escape being illegal but then you probably have a bunch of stock sitting around that doesn't move.

although as a general rule when I see black friday deals in Denmark I am not too thrilled at the savings, maybe because they tend to be realistic markdowns.

I just read somewhere last week that the The Netherlands would get a similar law. Searching for a link, I found out that its actually the European "New Deal for Consumers" package [0]

[0]:https://leveranciers.bol.com/en/need-help/legislation/legisl...

Question is whether this is enforced? Is there a way to fine firms? Can you complain about them?

the site I linked to is the consumer rights ombudsmand, so you can complain to them, and the consumer rights ombudsmand can also undertake independent investigations if she wants (although unsure about how that works)

on edit: consumer rights of course covers more than this but going through the site can find cases where companies have been fined etc. for violations of rights - for example https://www.forbrugerombudsmanden.dk/nyheder/forbrugerombuds...

in this case company reported to police for illegal telephone sales.

We have a similar law in Romania, the agency for consumer protection fined all major retailers for our Black Friday event and even temporarily closed a website until they changed prices to match reality. The fines weren't that big so I'm not sure that they won't do it again for the next sales period.

Why would you need much or any stock? Just set the price to DKK 10,000. Then you don't need to carry much stock as no one will be buying and then advertise 90% off.

But you are loosing sales the rest of the year and putting you into excessive stress during the black Friday period. Not a good strategy in my book.

I'm pretty sure that would also fall under the laws regarding misleading the consumer, and also let's say I am a company that sells coffee makers - in order to do this tactic I have to choose a potentially sellable coffee maker and decide not to sell it for a longer period of time in order to make a potential killing on black friday at the same time when consumers checking prices on coffee makers on pricerunners and other tools see that you have a coffee maker that everyone else has for 1000 at 10000 and decide your company is lousy and not to want to buy anything from you?

In Norway we have similar laws. There's also at least two sites that track prices from various online stores, so you can check cheapest price for almost any product and track it's price going back years.

Often raising the price raises the perception and increases sales.

https://www.google.com/search?q=raising+prices+increases+sal...

Illegal in Finland, too. But it's rarely enforced by the authorities (they would have a lot of work to follow up every case) and as a consumer you don't have the right to request damages.

If you could demand the difference you "lost" by believing in their exaggerated discount the law would be useful.

This probably just works against shoppers in Denmark, doesn't it? Global brands are going to likely raise their prices across the board. When Black Friday comes, what's left to do but limit the possible discount in countries where there is a similar restriction?

I can't tell if I'm seeing in-country prices from retailers in Denmark, but the Samsung 'The Frame' TV 55" (QE55LS03A) seems to be available all over the planet. This morning at bestbuy.com it's listed at normally $1499US, for sale at $999US. We typically get a local sales tax added to that of ~7%, so just under $1100US out the door.

I've never heard this described as a tactic of international brands, but only of retailers, so I guess I would need to see data that showed that brands actually did this.

And if the brand did this - how would it actually work. They would be telling the brand pay use 2000 for half the year, and then coming to black friday they would tell the brand now you only need to pay us 1500? I'm not getting the angle here.

I've normally thought of it as a retailer thing, but it does look a bit like it's brand-led in some cases.

I'm currently in the market for a few big ticket household items, and the Black Friday hype is everywhere I look. When I try to compare prices for specific models, they are suspiciously identical everywhere, with a few outliers charging the higher RRP.

I would expect a retailer-led approach to have a bit more variation. Just a few quid here or there, where some might have a genuine "clearance" need, others lower general overheads/margins etc.

QE55LS03A is available from >6 mayor retailers in Poland today at $900-930 free shipping, this price includes all the taxes and 2 year warranty. What is happening? US always had the lowest prices on electronics.

I don't know how it works in Denmark but I've seen that being worked around all the times.

A typical thing is to make a special model just for the sales, which is the same as the normal model with maybe some small differences like firmware tweaks, different accessories, different stickers, etc... They put one or two samples in the corner of the shop at an inflated price, not intended for anyone to actually purchase, then when the sales come, they unload the truck and proudly show the new "discounted" price.

This way, they can justify that they had the product available for a long time, that it didn't sell, and they can officially make the discount.

They don't even have to keep stock except for the one sample. You can get a funny situation sometimes when someone actually wants to buy the sample at the sticker (inflated) price and the shop actively tries to discourage the customer from buying it despite the huge margin. That's because without the sample, they won't be able to justify the "discount" later.

Mystery meat items like TVs and mattresses are ripe for these kinds of shenanigans.

In China "buy one, get one free" usually means if you buy a dress you get a belt to go with it free, or something like that.

In Europe, and I'm sure the US the items must be the same or of equivalent value. Also I believe the “full price” before discount must have been the offered price for a certain number of days in the recent past, but I can’t remember the details.

This take is wrong, Black Friday has always been about the beginning of the holiday shopping season, traditionally holiday decorations started the day after Thanksgiving and the doorbuster deals are loss leaders to drive traffic to stores. Source: middle age American. Also history: https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2021/11/24/franskgivi...

Sorry, I didn't mean that what I said was the origin, only that was what it was marketed as around that period, and I should clarify my context that I was talking about what it was like in Canada, where it has only relatively recently become a thing. I guess what I meant to refer to was its etymological shift from the "selling excess stock" narrative in America (which itself was just a rebranding of the previous meaning) towards becoming a global event of consumption for consumption's sake in itself.

Maybe I am wrong, but I feel like it has only been within the past couple decades that we have seen things marketed as black Friday outside of America, or sales co-opting the name for things like pre-black Friday sales, extended black friday sales and things like black Friday in summer.

> "selling excess stock" narrative in America

That wasn't the narrative in 2002, my first Black Friday.

Yeah you are right, it was more like getting into the black.

Yeah it wasn't really a thing in Canada when I was kid and Boxing Day was the big sale day. Wikipedia says it started here because we hit par with USD and retailers wanted to keep people from just doing all their holiday shopping in the U.S.

To me there is two specific aspect of Black Friday that make it special for online shopping:

- retailers are showcasing a limited number of goods that they expect to sell fast.

This means short delivery times, no weird third party shipping from obscure places. They are prepared, and even buying at the same price as usual, the experience tends to be better.

- the piling up effect makes it worse for delivery, worker conditions are probably worse, even if they get paid some amount more than usual.

This makes it a very mixed bag, and I wish we had a better grip on the second point, to be able to fully appreciate the first one.

> retailers are showcasing a limited number of goods that they expect to sell fast.

I wonder how much of that is true and how much is just make believe.

Anecdotally, last year a bit before Black Friday we wanted a new iPad (unrelated to the event, it just happened that way). Ordering directly from Apple had a 2 weeks delivery date, getting it from Amazon during Black Friday landed it 2 days after in front of our door.

And it was cheaper (same price, but bigger storage)

I'm Canadian in 1999 I was in Scranton, Pa. for Thanksgiving and my friend said Black Friday tomorrow. I said what's that? She was shocked I didn't know about it. Back home it was unheard of since our Thanksgiving is in October. I didn't go to a store I headed home but now I wish I would have experienced it.

Until recently, Black Friday didn't exist at all in the UK, and I only knew of it from American TV. It's suddenly become a big thing here within the last ~5 years. This makes me said.

(It's not our first American cultural import either. Halloween has been a thing in the UK for as long as I've been alive, but my parents' generation didn't grow up with it.)

I'm sorry you had to spend Thanksgiving in Scranton.

It was great I had a great time at the Genet's, had some Yugoslavian moonshine too. Alcohol is astonishing cheap in the US.

Scranton reminds me a lot of Nova Scotia or more specifically Cape Breton (part of Nova Scotia). Coal, steel, and trains plus the lay of the land too.

I live in slovenia.

We literally have all-month black friday "deals".

Steam sales lost all meaning years ago. It happens to everything that transitions from rare to usual

They haven't lost meaning, you can still wait a bit to get your game cheaper. It does usually follow a pattern of: opening sale 10%, full price for a bit, seasonal sales 10-50%, eventually up to 90% off during seasonal sales.

Sure. But have you not noticed how the same, now oldish, games go on sale for the exact same amount for years and years?

I can tell without looking that Cities: Skylines is sold for 6.99 euro. Or the latest Civilization game at 15 euro. Or bioshock infinite at 7.99 euro or so.

What's the problem with that? Terraria has been on sales for 2$ for ages now, that doesn't mean it isn't a bargain to buy at that price instead of 10 or 12 that it is regularly.

No problem at all. It's just not special anymore. Do you not remember the first few steam sales? Everyone's mind was blown because there was nothing like it until that point

https://isthereanydeal.com?

Thanks!

In the US I was seeing things labeled as "Black Friday" in the middle of the summer.

Probably Lenovo?

Something similar happens in El Salvador.

One retailer trademarked "Black Friday" so no other store can use it.

This caused Black Friday to become Black November, Blue November, Red Weekend. I think we even have deals in September.

In Sweden we have "black week" starting monday before black friday, then of course black friday, cyber weeked, cyber monday. Then there is any number of made-up things by various sellers too. Traditionally there is always a sale between christmas and new years, and basically all of January too.

I think this year was not very common in that for example TVs had the same low price the entire week, usually someone has a lower price during just the friday but not for popular models this year.

Denmark it's the same deal. "Black Week/Month", mostly because at least for online retailers, stores don't want to deal with the high influx of customers on a single day.

Personally I liked "Mellandagsrea" more than Black Friday back in the day. It was much more calm.

Sure, if you get caught up in the mania and hype of any particular "sale" and don't price compare then you're bound to get ripped off.

I wouldn't dismiss singles day, though. There were some surprisingly cheap (both in price and quality) items I picked up on singles day.

Got an AirPod clone for something like a dollar last year.

This year I picked up a coffee grinder off the official retailer for Timemore on AliExpress. The official Canadian retailer charges a 100% premium on the product. No thanks, I'll wait for it to come on the slow boat.

I waited for singles day and got it for another $10 off.

I used to chase these kinds of deals, but if you stop to think about it, spending hours to optimize for $10 is almost certainly a terrible waste compared to what you could have been doing with that time. Deal seeking always eats up many hours of time for these small gains. That analysis skill applied to any kind of business problem is easily worth thousands.

No offense intended if this is pure stamp collecting.

That only works if the use of that time towards a more productive activity actually pays off in that short duration; sometimes comparing shops and making sure you're getting the best is the most fun part, so there's some utility derived from there as well. At least for myself, I only really deal-hunt during Black Friday and anytime else I get what I need when I need them.

I run an e-commerce business and see the opposite as well.

People who earn, say, $30/hr won't take literally 2 seconds to scroll past the sponsored listings and save $50+.

How do you know the incomes of random people visiting your site?

I don't, it's basically just a "normal wage" for non-professionals in Australia.

My point was that people will spend an hour working to make $30 but won't spend a minute looking around to save $50.

I’m probably one of those people that don’t bother with the sponsored items. I’m not much of a spontanious shopper, if I buy something then I most often know what I want before I even go to the shopping site. Example is if I’m buying a tv then I don’t care if Samsung has an equal model at half off if I’m already set on getting a specific LG. I do look sround to see who has a better deal on the item I’m looking for however.

When I was salaried, the marginal value of my time was $0. Thar extra thirty minutes shopping costs me nothing and gives me satisfaction. Now that I'm retired, my marginal value is still $0. Taking longer to spend money is in itself valuable. If I get discouraged by the shopping and don't buy the item I was looking for, that's the best outcome for my wallet.

The marginal value of your time was not $0. You could have been doing something other than shopping with your time. That thing could have afforded you pleasure or had some other utility. The dollar value of that utility was not zero.

Even resting has some benefit to you. Unless your only alternative is some mildly unpleasant activity which doesn't allow you to rest, that time was not valueless.

> Unless your only alternative is some mildly unpleasant activity which doesn't allow you to rest, that time was not valueless.

So you're saying I shouldn't be playing MMORPGs all the time?

Entertainment is useful. Excess entertainment is wasteful. Keyword being excess. I calculate the waste as: cost of the entertainment plus potential loss of income from missed opportunitys of work and training. Of course if your entertainment is bring some other tangible benefits, like exercise, then that needs to be factored in.

I remember the day after Thanksgiving being a day my relatives (at least the ones interested in shopping in malls, etc) being excited about going shopping. Lots of people had the day off, originally I think "black Friday" just meant that stores were really busy.

It literally meant the day stores would go into the "black" because many stores would be in the red for the year overall until they sold so much on that one day they'd turn a profit for the year or go into the "black" on their accounting.

You are repeating a fairy tale some marketers invented to explain the black friday name.

Black friday is a term for a day when something horrible ocurs, the term was applied to the day after thanksgiving by police in an american city because of the difficulty in maintaining crowd control and it caught on.

If you're so certain your etymology is the right one, you should probably be able to name the city.

Philadelphia and Rochester. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Friday_(shopping)#Origin...

Well guess what? Language and terminology change over time

While black Friday is a reference to a single day in history. It is also a reference to the annual shopping for Christmas. Which has also changed. It really was the start of the shopping season but alas, you cant stop change

No stores operate at a loss for 10 months out of the year.

> It has been interesting watching the concept of Black Friday (and cyber monday) evolve over the past 20 or so years from being mostly an "American big box retailer dumping excess stock" thing to "oh boy its black Friday, time to go buy stuff!"

This sounds like pump&dump with extra steps.

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