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Comment by pkdpic | Hacker News Reader

Im thankful to have a job and a roof over my head and a little bit of savings. Not having to really worry about money still blows my mind now and then.

Looking across the street every day in California and seeing the homelessness crisis in full swing is an ever present reminder of what this economy and this society can do to you if you slip up for even a second and / or have even a minor run of bad luck.

Working in software isn't always easy or fun or fulfilling but its still an incredible privilege to be working in this industry.

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> Looking across the street every day in California and seeing the homelessness crisis in full swing is an ever present reminder of what this economy and this society can do to you if you slip up for even a second and / or have even a minor run of bad luck. Working in software isn't always easy or fun or fulfilling but its still an incredible privilege to be working in this industry.

I'm a senior software engineer with decades in the industry, but a few years ago I completely burned out, ended up addicted to alcohol, and lost everything.

And when I say lost everything, I mean everything. I ended up in a homeless shelter.

Climbing out from there to get back into the industry was an insane battle. I finally got control over all of it and back on my feet, but I have a new found respect for just being able to keep a roof over my head and pay bills now.

That's all I want. I use my free time to give back to society now.

Thanks for sharing. I'm glad you're doing well.

Thank you so much for sharing this, its deeply inspiring and feels like really important context / wisdom for someone still at the beginning of their dev career. This is exactly why HN can be such an amazing community (imho). Im more and more thankful for that as well.

yikes! glad you climbed back.

This strikes home for me. I come from an extended family of laborers and addicts. All of us had the same future: miserable work, low wages, multiple bankruptcies, and early death.

I’m 57. I’ve worked as a photographer for 32 years, made a great living and traveled the world. I’ve collaborated with incredible people, and seen (and documented) amazing things.

I live in a beautiful house (I paid it off years ago) in a great city. I have zero debt and have so many options about what I’ll do.

My retirement investments have been done very well (good luck getting me to stop working). I have a wonderful family and an incredible daughter.

I never take any of this for granted. I am so thankful. My siblings, cousins, aunts, etc see me like an alien creature. At 57 I’m the oldest living male in generations of my family.

I was lucky enough to have spent my youth in one of the five least expensive places to live in the United States, and I stayed. I can easily buy a home for $30,000 here, and I have done so a few times.

I was fortunate enough to find a company where I live that wrote their major systems in assembler in the late 1960's; they use UNIX/Linux to glue modern systems to a vertical wall of technical debt. This is an endless amount of fun.

I go only so far into these legacy systems (we even have an emulated VAX running VMS, which I keep at arm's distance). I should be thankful for having an unprivileged VMS account. I don't want to run that system.

That actually does sound like fun! Live that dream!

If you can and aren't already, maybe consider organising with less privileged workers for things like striking in unison. Or getting politically active to grow economy and society so it will be kinder and allow a slip up.

One of the many reasons I would never move to the US is that in Europe I don't feel like a minor slip up or bad luck will send me into financial ruin. I'll need surgery on my shoulder soon and hopefully it should be fully covered by my health insurance, no added charges. It's an example that comes up again and again and I'm sure people in your position worry less about it, but it's something I keep seeing play a role with my acquaintances and online

I moved from europe to the us because I could never become financially independent with the low compensation and high taxes in EU. I would never wish for us to ever be as unambitious and hard to grow as the eu is.

I think it’s quite possible to find a middle road there.

You would never wish it for those that achieve growth or for the people suffering homelessness, debt, precariousness, etc? My gut tells me we both have very different ideas on what ambition is/can be, what form of growth is valuable, and how economic liberalism weighs in.

Ethics aside, the taxes I've been paying out of my salary since I've been in the industry allows me today to benefit from an incredible financial safety net as I'm attempting to put together my own R&D software company.

On Europe vs. the US: if you consider private health insurance in the US a part of your taxes, then the difference is not that big anymore. In fact it may even be the other way around: in the US you may be overpaying for health services if you are insured [1]

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/08/22/upshot/hospit...

A minor slip up doesn’t ruin people financially in the US the vast majority of the time. That’s why it’s a non-issue politically.

Your perspective of US life is just shaped by what they report on in the news/reddit/here/etc. Nobody reports on the people that live boring, comfortable lives.

I know enough US citizens personally that I can assure you, I'm aware of the correction that needs to be applied but consider that you might be underestimating how bad things are in the US because you are comfortable.

I personally would not want to live in that system. I am 29, debt free, with a university education from one of the countries top universities where I spend 1.5 years extra for an exchange and having needed hospitalisation multiple times in my life. This experience is something that, statistically, not many US citizens my age have (especially the debt freeness), and I have had enough interactions with exchange students who expressed genuine surprise I had no second thought of going to the hospital to appreciate this carefreeness over the benefits the US system might bring for people like me in the happy path.

But that's personal opinion of course.

Even if a minor slip up doesn't ruin you, the paperwork, hassle and the constant fear is ridiculous. That's no way to live a civilized life - and I say this as an American who has experienced better care even in third world countries.

If you have talent, show up, and a clean criminal record, you can make it in the US without a problem. There’s more money than talent, meaning if you have talent, there are people ready to give you plenty of money. It’s not hard in and of itself. It says something that many people’s problem in the US is getting in their own way. People in other places in the world have far less mobility opportunities than we have here. I’m thankful for that.

If you compare globally sure, if you compare with Europe, the data tells a different story. The US are 27th in social mobility behind all of the northwestern European nations with high taxation (data from the WEF, infographic from the site I link to).

While Germany and the other European nations are far from perfect and I like some of the business aspects of the US, coming from money matters more in the US than in Europe, statistically.

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/ranked-the-social-mobility-...

Very grateful for your notification of the existence of visualcapitalist.com (It also has RSS, though through an external provider)

I wanted to reciprocate revealing something along the lines, but apart from ourworldindata.org (which has a numeric approach instead of notional), I can only find the promising JunkChart, https://junkcharts.typepad.com/junk_charts/ , and The Economist's Graphic Detail, https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail?page=1 , blogs.

Edit: the said branch of The Economist seems very promising: the latest article, "Just like modern humans, honeybees avoid each other amid plagues // They segregate behaviours in different parts of their hives to prevent parasites from spreading" as a stub shout heading reads «Social distan-sting». Thank you dear editor!

When "other places in the world" is mentioned, one need not imagine it refers to the non-applicable places. That seems a wasted effort.

> Im thankful to have a job

I think you've got that backwards. Everyone is thankful for money and possessions. A job is just how you happen to get them. Would you be unhappy to be very wealthy, without a job?

> seeing the homelessness crisis in full swing is an ever present reminder of what this economy and this society can do to you if you slip up for even a second and / or have even a minor run of bad luck.

I've known a lot of homeless people. Their circumstances are overwhelmingly caused by drug addition or mental illness. Not that anyone will admit to it.

If you're willing and able to work full-time, you can manage a reasonable living. There are government and private programs to support the disabled, unemployed, keep the impoverished who don't fit those categories from starving, etc. Not to mention charities, and friends/family groups who will help most anyone who doesn't get enough support from those programs, or just had "bad luck". Mental illness and drug addition does a good job of cutting you off from all those sources of support.

> A job is just how you happen to get them

I happen to enjoy my job very much. I'd feel useless and bored without it.

If you didn't have to worry about money, you'd have ample time to find fulfilling hobbies to occupy your time.

You could even do all the parts of your job that you enjoy, while skipping all the unpleasant parts of it.

I created my own job by starting my own business, which I enjoyed a lot and it paid well.

I feel sad for you if you see work only as a way to make money. A good job with a team that is working together towards a goal is a very satisfying experience. I would be unhappy to be very wealthy without a job. There are many people who end up lost because they don’t have a sense of purpose, and a job helps with that.

I agree with everything you're saying except for your usage of purpose. To me, life is not about doing meaningful and purposeful things. It's about satisfying yourself. With the right incentives, we can satisfy ourselves in ways that are meaningful and purposeful. Finding the right work with the right people is extremely satisfying. If you don't enjoy your work, it's likely you are not working on the right things or you have some mental health issues which are lingering beneath the surface.

It can be both. I would guess that most people, once they have satisfied their basic needs, begin to strive to help their kids, their friends, their community, and possibly even their country and/or world.

Would you be unhappy to be very wealthy, without a job?

Yes.

> Would you be unhappy to be very wealthy, without a job?

Absolutely. Working on stuff for my job that I’m passionate about gives me great fulfillment. Being paid for my skills is recognition from society as to the value I provide.

Eh, between the two, I'd reckon it'd be foolish not to go with the wealth. I can always get a job, or use the breathing room provided by wealth to gain skills for a job. The inverse is not nearly as reliable.

In Seattle anyway, 90% of the homeless are either drug addicts or alcoholics. Becoming one is a choice under your control, not god smiting you.

> Working in software

is a heluva lot better than stoop labor, what people have done for millennia. Every time I work on the yard I'm reminded again at how hard stoop labor is, and how I'm glad to work sitting in a comfy chair in a warm house with the stereo playing in the background. And I can play on HN when waiting for the test suite to run.

> Becoming one is a choice under your control

To an extent. Some people are predisposed to addiction and the poor are much less likely to have the knowledge or support required to recognise or battle addiction.

I know that some people are predisposed to addiction. It's harder for them, sure, but becoming an addict is still a choice for them. I know some who chose to get and stay clean, too, despite being predisposed.

I wager that poor people are far better at recognizing addiction than non-poor. I hired a stoner once, not recognizing it. He robbed the company blind to pay his dealer.

Social workers are always trying to get the homeless addicts into rehab. They generally refuse to. It is their choice, not lack of money. In fact, I suspect that the lack of money is caused by their choice to be addicted. After all, addicts lose interest in their jobs and employers don't want stoners and drunks coming to work.

How much of a choice is it to be attracted to a given individual? Or to crave a certain kind of food? Or to be consumed with a specific kind of work? Or to care for your child?

I.e. I think we overestimate how much of a 'choice' certain outcomes are for most people.

I agree with this.

I’ve often contemplated that given that the part of me that has a poor work ethic and refuses to get help has generally won out, I would easily be on the streets if I was born into a family of low socioeconomic status, rather than having lots of savings and living in a nice apartment. Also, I’ve spiraled downwards many times, and I’m lucky that food, isolation, internet are my vices, rather than hard drugs.

In the times I’ve finally “decided” to improve my life, I honestly have no explanation for why I did that, versus continue to spiral downwards.

> In the times I’ve finally “decided” to improve my life, I honestly have no explanation for why I did that, versus continue to spiral downwards.

It's interesting how much these kinds of choices are affected by people around you. E.g. when I had classmates depending on me to finish a part of a project, or a partner needing a good night sleep, I am much less likely to goof off into the wee hours of the night playing video games or such.

Makes me wish I could have recognized this way earlier and set up periodic "check-ins" with a group of friends. I've seen some people accomplish this via "life coaches." Some people have really involved parents. Explains why people with poorer backgrounds may do worse - less of this kind of involvement. Conversely I wonder if church/temple participation helps the other way.

People often conveniently claim they had "no choice" so they can absolve themselves of responsibility for their actions.

> How much of a choice is it to be attracted to a given individual?

Don't confuse ones' choices with ones' desires. You have free will, you can indulge in the bad predilections, or not. Your choice.

Nobody said making the better choice is easy.

If I had my druthers, I'd eat nothing but donuts and ice cream all day. But I choose otherwise.

People often conveniently claim they had "no choice" so they can absolve themselves of responsibility for their actions.

Choices or no choices, or free will, doesn't absolve someone of consequences, responsibility, or reality stemming from actions being undertaken.

The choice is not the in feeling, it's in the action.

At least when it comes to addiction, there can be no recovery unless there is a conscious choice to do something about it. Nobody can save these people unless they want to be saved.

It was 100% my choice to smoke 1.5 packs per day for 20 years. Just like it was my choice to quit. The first choice was easy, the second was not. You don't choose how you feel about things, but to a large extent you choose how you act.

A fairly useless way to think about when it comes to solving problems in our society.

At the end of the days, people's choices are determined by large number of factors, most of which we are unaware of or currently ill equipped to understand.

It would be like a person having a seizure and people deciding to blame said person for making a choice to be corrupted by a devil.

A seizure is not the same thing at all. Nobody can choose to have a seizure, or choose not to have one.

A seizure is not the same thing at all. Nobody can choose to have a seizure, or choose not to have one.

Nobody chose anything without being dictated by physics, biological, sociological, and cognitive factors.

Seizures were once thought to be caused by sinfulness. We used to think problem gambling was a decision, until we discovered a drug that can cause it. I don't think we know why addicts become addicts just yet, so it might be a little early to orate upon it.

This is a fun one, let's take the case of mental illness.

Assume we know the person's addiction and subsequent dysfunction is from said mental illness. The person doesn't want to be treated, as is often the case. Do you

A: let him carry on as is, resulting in both self-harm alongside other externalities

B: Violate his right to self determination and have him committed to a mental institution.

A heartless and uninformed perspective that is all too common among people born into privilege (you may not have been but in my experience, most people who believe this were).

The majority of addicts are people who have experienced trauma. Often this is childhood trauma, specifically sexual, emotional or physical abuse. Of course it may also have occurred in adulthood. Veterans are one common example but there are millions of other causes.

Shit happens man. You can be an armchair judge but it’s all too easy to go off the rails in this world. Be compassionate! Instead of “you made some bad choices” maybe try thinking, “there but for the grace of god go I”.

I never said compassion was unhelpful. If compassion helps an addict choose to stop using, great! But it's still, in the end, the addict's choice.

You could choose compassion but instead you choose judgment.

Asserting that people have agency over their lives empowers them. That does not preclude compassion for the state they're in. Not at all.

> But it's still, in the end, the addict's choice.

It seems to me your language above suffers from a false dichotomy.

One might start with a binary question such as "Do we have free will or not?".

However, a better question is "Under what conditions and to what extent are we conscious of our choices, rational in how we evaluate them, and informed enough to predict how they will play out?"

This is a sort of response that makes the conversation stink and as well has no optimal solution would come out.

  > I know that some people

I know that this writing will make no change in your bigoted perception but at-least it might to others. So, I'm writing it.

Addiction is NOT a choice, and it is a form of chemical imbalance that happens in our complex brain that makes the person get into addiction with any substance. It could be said like any other mental health illnesses. AND when the person who got addicted doesn't get enough support and the compassion (likely not from you) to the way where they can be able to stay away from their addiction, there is a possibility that such person could go worse.

> Addiction is NOT a choice

Drinking alcohol is a choice, so is sticking the needle in your arm.

> likely not from you

I support programs for treatment for addicts. Successful treatment, however, involves the addicts accepting responsibility. Nobody ever said recovery is easy. It isn't. Compassion is in order to help them recover.

But ultimately it's still up to them to make the choice.

Reducing that situation to a 'choice' is (from an analytical standpoint) just wrong, because the mechanics at work are a lot more complex.

In the end, you can say it is a choice, but what is a choice worth, if you don't know anything about preconditions (the knowledge, the impulse control, the education, the emotional point of reference, earlier experiences, etc). Not talking about how drugs affect your ability to choose and execute what you have chosen to do.

>In Seattle anyway, 90% of the homeless are either drug addicts or alcoholics

That's a big claim to make. Do you have any sources?

The "Seattle is Dying" video produced by KOMO, the local TV station.

"60 Minutes" also ran a segment on the Seattle homeless a couple years ago. They went in looking for people who were down on their luck. They found drug addicts and alcoholics.

When I hung out with a homeless guy in North Beach, SF for a good hour while he was painting his perspective on shelters was that the addicted folks were in shelters, and non-addicts that went to shelters were treated as if they were addicts. He felt rather de-humanized by the whole system and so he stays on the street.

I haven’t seen these videos yet, but I’m curious if they went to shelters or streets.

Here's a write-up from Seattle's government about the root causes of homelessness in the city: https://www.seattle.gov/homelessness/the-roots-of-the-crisis

This is a take on the issue by the Seattle Times: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/homeless/why-are-p...

I remember that ST article. Their statistics have problems - for example, a big reason people lose their jobs is because of drug addiction or alcoholism. The same for evictions. The same for their own families throwing them out.

Drug addiction and alcoholism is the proximate cause of a lot of calamities in peoples' lives.

Your number of "90%" isn't even close to accurate:

https://our.news/external/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhotair.com%2Far...

Not really, he was just referring to Chronic Visible Homeless, your article doesn't break out SUD for that sub group but even at just the Chronic Homeless level (many who aren't on the street) it puts the rate at 2/3 having substance issues.

The drug addicts and alcoholics are much easier to find than the people down on their luck, who mostly are still functional and instead make up the more invisible portion of the homeless population. They are also the most easily helped by existing resources (easy cases that don’t involve rehab and can live independently).

Describing human actions as either ‘under one’s control’ or ‘not’ is an oversimplified and inaccurate world view.

I think the evidence suggests a different understanding:

1. One individual’s willpower varies significantly over time (over a day for example)

2. One individual’s set of options varies in many ways — not limited to education, awareness, culture, economic opportunity, and luck.

3. Many important actions are not consciously decided.

This plays out in many ways.

Many individuals that achieve some kind of success mistakenly over-attribute it to hard work or intelligence —- and downplay the role of culture, opportunity, privilege, and luck.

I understand that today it is popular to assert that people are just hapless victims of circumstance, that they don't have agency.

I don't buy it.

Furthermore, when people take responsibility for their lives, they tend to have much better outcomes. I'm old, and I've observed this play out constantly. Blaming others and circumstance might make one feel better, but it is completely useless.

And lastly, successful treatment for addiction and alcoholism involves the person taking responsibility for the addiction.

> I understand that today it is popular to assert that people are just hapless victims of circumstance, that they don't have agency.

I didn't assert that.

For those who disagree, take a look at Alcoholics Anonymous. It's about making choices. I don't believe it is a mean, heartless, compassion-less organization.

> In Seattle anyway, 90% of the homeless are either drug addicts or alcoholics.

You wrote "90%" -- a specific figure -- as opposed to writing "most" or "many". Why did you choose this number? Do you have a reference you can share?

California sounds so extreme in this regard. When I started working in software in the UK I made much less than say a hairdresser, and never saw homeless people (not in a city so…). I didn’t feel this stark difference that being in 2020s + SF seems to highlight.

When I'd visit London on business in the 80's, the homeless were very much present and visible. The concierge at the hotel told me not to leave the hotel before 6AM (I had jet lag and was headed out for a walk) because I'd be easy meat.

London really cleaned up in the 90s. There is still visible homeless, but nothing like US cities with homeless camps. Officially, there are a lot of "homeless" but far fewer "unsheltered"

I've lived in Seattle since the 70s. I never saw tents until recently.

I arrived in Seattle yesterday, staying in Ballard. Wow, it's bad here. Worse than it used to be pre-pandemic.

If you weren’t in a city that’s the difference. You only need to travel like 20 miles south of San Francisco to never see homeless people. Mountain View might as well be a different country.

Even things like not having to budget for groceries and the occasional going out to eat is something I often take for granted. I stay frugal, but have never really had to hem and haw about whether I should spring for the organic produce or fair trade coffee.

"I can't afford this" is a lot more difficult of a circumstance to be in than "boy that was a dumb idea to purchase some pricey, fancy, but nasty cheese on a whim"

I could agree more with this, word for word. It still hits me almost every time I go to the grocery store somehow.

I don’t think you read the piece.

I hear you man, I hear you

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