The High Cost of Men's Loneliness | Hacker News Reader

The High Cost of Men's Loneliness

psychologytoday.com

53 pointswyrm28 comments

I've recently started opening up to more people about this in my personal life. Like many others on here, I've worked remote now since March 2020, and the lack of interpersonal interaction with others during my work days has taken a great personal toll. I still go out with my significant other and see other people as well when we go out, but I've found it really hard to get meaning out of work when I don't see people. That, coupled with a move to a new city (to be closer to outdoor activities), has meant that I've struggled with feelings of loneliness.

I think part of the problem is that admitting this type of feeling is seen as personal weakness in men but perfectly acceptable for a woman to talk about. When men say they're lonely, it's often hard to find other men to talk about it with. I know that I'll get out of it because I'm pretty extroverted, but just thought I'd give my personal (and recent) experience with what this article is talking about.

This is interesting to read as I'm pretty introverted, so I've taken the opposite approach. I avoid talking about it because I expect to be treated differently in a negative way by work colleagues if I admit it, and I don't know many people close enough outside of a work context to speak about it. My approach, which is fairly effective at causing happiness, is to start by finding joy in solitary activities, versus seeking friends. I really like reading classic books, film, and music.

I don't expect to make a close friend like I did in my youth, and I also prefer not to, because I felt like my former best friend took advantage of the fact that I wouldn't have any close connections left if he left, and treated me in a way that made my life worse for a while until I ended things. So, I figure there are worse things than being alone.

If anything, I'm treat relationships with significant others as best friend relationships with intimacy. Otherwise, I have healthy working relationships work colleagues, but I don't expect to make friends like in high school, and I'm usually pretty happy trying to better myself mostly on my own.

Charles Bukowski's poem comes to mind:

  there are worse things

  than being alone

  but it often takes

  decades to realize this

  and most often when you do

  it's too late

  and there's nothing worse

  than too late

Renting a coworking desk helped my morale after a year of working at home. Even a cafe once a week could help.

This article is interesting. I don’t think the loneliness that OP is talking about here is universally bad.

I don’t have any close friends. I have a social media presence, but aside from Reddit (with which I only use the comments features), I don’t use those platforms at all. I’ve never been unhappy with this arrangement though; in fact, I love my time alone.

However, I have heaps of acquaintances (i.e. folks in my contacts list that I don’t call or see often) and am social when I go out. I know how to strike up conversation and know how to have and be a good time. I enjoy these activities, but doing without doesn’t impact me negatively unless I spend many many months not doing that.

I know the cost. What do we do about it?

It is up to the individual to realize that social relationships are something that need tending to and that it is an investment and not a waste of our resources. It is also important to realize that social proxies like social media do not really replace real human interaction and connection even though at times it can feel like they do. In the past we lived in a community, we grew up in one place, we got a job in that place, we had friends or at least people who knew us all around us, due to the nature of the industrial modern world, we frequently move for opportunities, have ample choice in who to associate with and all that causes a need to put more effort into relationships, not less, yet for some reason most of us still have the mindset of relationships will continue naturally even without tending to. What to do about is go out and put effort to have more physical relationships, go out with friends and play a sport, drink beer, watch a movie, be open if your friends initiate and invite you somewhere, do the same once in a while. Take an interest in their lives and also be willing to share a bit about yours. I move around frequently but i always made good friends at work, i always invite people to go out for drinks and a good number respond, we always bond over drinks and this then turns into a friendship. You won't believe the amount of people I've met who feel lonely but don't initiate, don't come to events that are initiated on their behalf for whatever reason because the event is on a Tuesday and thats the day they have their weekly call of duty round, basically people who don't want to make any adjustments to their life to get out there and hopefully make a connection.

You're right but I see trouble operationalizing it.

(1) I reached out to a guy who was interested in sci-fi movies and TV to watch at my house, he didn't do it, I ended up talking to him in between a suicide attempt and a suicide completion and didn't have the courage to speak up but I don't know if it would have gotten through.

(2) The centering around alcohol is a problem. My doc doesn't want me drinking. Other people are recovered from alcohol addiction and can't be around other people who are drinking.

(3) It is easy to say maintain but a lot of people have nothing to maintain and really need a fast answer to build up a circle of friends.

(4) Intergenerational issues. People 10 years older than me just seem to want to drive buicks and go to the casino. I think I can relate to younger people better but maybe I am kidding myself.

(5) The role of women in all this. Sometimes I find myself trying to avoid "sausage party" events but maybe that's a mistake.

Hate to be the guy with objections.

I would operationalize it by simplifying it to habits:

-Avoid declining invitations to go out, unless it's really necessary -Try to find other people who don't like drinking. Most of my work colleagues don't drink, and a couple old high school friends who I see occasionally also don't drink. Day activities, like lunch, are pretty good. -Martial arts is a good way to meet other guys. Volunteering, especially if you're in a unique role that interacts with lots of other people (e.g. help desk), is helpful. -Don't worry about age so much after a certain age. Lots of people like to hang out with others who are fun to hang out with, with age being not as relevant. -Try for a mix of both. In college, most of my organizational activities had majority women by a significant (writing, etc.; though I never dated anyone there), but I actually missed out with guys-only events. I didn't realize it until I met up with some old high school friends, and felt free to talk about relationships with them.

I'm also sorry to hear about your friend. It was really kind of you to reach out to him; a lot of people don't when they see people are struggling. You were there and available for him, which is rare and can help so much.

>(5) The role of women in all this. Sometimes I find myself trying to avoid "sausage party" events but maybe that's a mistake.

(EDIT: I should mention I'm somewhat exaggerating the differences to highlight them in this post)

As someone who's exposed to different cultures fairly regularly(im Indian American, and a Muslim) I feel this one is a odd American cultural quirk. Among many of my friends of a similar cultural background(Muslims, or just Indians) to me I see a large value placed on "chilling with your bros". It's generally a very open space, where even the quiet awkward member of the group has no reason to be judged. And it happens pretty often-- the reason for doing it is because that's what people do.

But I find with my Caucasian American friends there usually has to be a _reason_ for men to hang out. I don't know if it's a culture just pushes the pursuit of women a little too hard, or fear of something. Even with the extroverts, you have to go to a bar, or a show or something. With my other friends we'll go out and eat, or even just sit on someone's couch and make jokes if there's nothing else to. There isn't as much friction. Keeping friends is easy.

I don't mean any of this in a "superior" way-- in fact I feel like with every generation my culture grows more like the larger American culture-- a little more awkward and formal. So I'm not saying we have all the answers, these are just observations I've made.

To me it feels like Americans used to really value "man time"-- going out and BBQing or going camping just to spend time with other men-- isn't really valued anymore. Sometimes it's even looked down upon as excessively masculine and unnecessary, or even gay(I've felt this when i told a friend who moved away that I missed him and made a joke about me being gay-- not saying it's universal). I'd say articles like this reimforce the value of men hanging out with men just to have someone who gets you

I think this totally depends on where you look. I've had a great time during the pandemic just living with my high school friends, hanging out, drinking and smoking and just doing whatever. And before the pandemic, this is what my work friends and I would do in the bay area pretty much every day.

I think the key here is to just find grounded, normal people. There are a lot of insane narcissists in this country that need to consume, post, buy, etc. Kind of like the movie "American Psycho". These people generally suck IMO and I try to avoid them. My personal rule of thumb is that the more time a person spends on social media, the less I will find in common with them. I find social media obsession to be highly correlated with being an unpleasant narcissist.

>drinking and smoking and just doing whatever

Just to demonstrate one of the issues-- How about if your friends don't do this? Right there is a huge barrier to socializing-- you tend to hang out with people with similar drug habits. When someone gets sober, they often report losing a lot of friends because the alcohol is the common ground and without it hanging out on a couch doing nothing feels weird.

>I think the key here is to just find grounded, normal people.

I agree, I'm kind of exaggerating the difference between cultures in order to highlight it-- but it's not like I have no Caucasian American friends that can just hang out. I definitely do. It feels more like some people are more within that isolating sort of culture, while others aren't. A close friend from high school reached a point where he wouldn't hang out unless we were doing something, while there was a less close friend who I still hang out with as he's open to just hanging out for the sake of hanging out without needing to include an activity. The experience of the first friend still puzzles me, but the second friend is just like most friends from my culture.

I don't think so man, tons of frat bros just hang out drink beer and play darts or whatever. There are obviously people who are desperate for a relationship or to get laid, but you find these guys in every race of people.

Frat bros are together because of a shared space. It's how many of them stay friends 5 years down the line that would be relevant here. Also I would say drinking together is something to do, being able to be sober with others is a undervalued skill.

It's tempting to say that the main reason (for Caucasian American men needing a _reason_ to hang out) is over-exposure to capitalist mass-media - where endless advertising portrays ~all male socialization as being centered around consumption of $Advertiser's products & services.

1) You can't do much if the other person doesn't want to be helped, it is not your job to save people, this instance seems to go beyond friendship and the rules i've stated might not apply.

2)Drinking is just one venue, these days i go to the movies with friends (went to see dune recently), have communal meals (korean bbq is a particular favorite), try to ride a bike with a friend once in a while

3)There unfortunately is no fast way to build a circle of friends, cultivating relationships takes time, anyone who tries to rush this process will see their endeavors fail. If you have 0 friends, the best thing to do is try to make at least one friend by talking with people, initiating events, and following through. The rule here is that one lifelong friend is better than dozens of flakey friends.

4)I have friends much older than me and much younger than me, realize that people are people, they all have individual personalities, personalized interests, a relationship is a give and take, take an interest in learning other people's hobbies and interests, give them your attention but ditch them if they don't give you any attention (value yourself as a person first before attempting to make friends).

5)"Sausage party" events are where i had some of my best fun, i mean, unless your goal is to get laid or find a girlfriend, not sure why hanging out with a bunch of guys is considered a negative? The older i get, the more i cherish events where i can hangout with like minded individuals and play video games or talk about tech (which means it is mostly a "sausage party")

Australia has "Men's Sheds" that (try to) address this problem. The idea is slowly making its way into other countries but probably won't take off until there's better funding.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men%27s_shed

It's a hard problem because people's individual psychologies are so different; more concretely, what works for one person might not for another.

Here's what worked for me. In terms of thoughts, I rejected the conditioning (maybe even the instinct) that I need to have lots of friends, or even a close friend, to be happy. I still dress nice and take care of myself, but I'm happier with solitary activities like reading, where I can still learn from other people. I also don't hesitate to do typical group activities by myself sometimes (e.g. grabbing a nice dinner or going to the movies). I also do see people at martial arts, though it's less of a direct friendship with them.

For a population instead of an individual, I would generally recommend being okay with being solitary and staying connected by working on projects or anything related to physical fitness without expecting friendships. I think it's hard to have a best friend for most people as you get older, anyways; I believe it's better for a significant other to be a close confidant in that sense.

Does this apply to people who play video games? If you play social games like MMOs you're pretty much forced to interact with others. Does that help in any way combat the issues?

A recent Atlantic article implies that some studies suggest that social media, and online gaming in particular, may have been a net win for boys:

> When girls started spending hours each day on Instagram, they lost many of the benefits of play. (Boys lost less, and may even have gained, when they took up multiplayer fantasy games, especially those that put them into teams.)

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/11/facebooks-...

But boys != men. And I'd be careful not to discount the value of actual face time or the value of private personal discussions, whether in person or electronic--e-mail, IM, etc. Also, physical touching can be important for mental health and men have tended to lack that intimacy even before the Internet , or at least in recent pre-Internet history. Whereas women are constantly touching each other and even regularly paying to be touched--salon, massage, spa, etc. Historically there used to be much more male touching but a variety of unfortunate social dynamics have contributed to the over sexualization of male social physicality.

> physical touching can be important for mental health and men have tended to lack that intimacy even before the Internet

I think among many other things, this explains why jiu jitsu continues to grow so much. a) comraderie and shared struggle b) healthy touch c) exercise and all the other stuff, blah blah blah :)

> If you play social games like MMOs you're pretty much forced to interact with others

That maybe was the case with the oldschool MMOs (Everquest for example) where you could do not do anything alone but nowdays you can pretty much play them as a single player game. FFXIV, WoW, GW2 etc. are incredibly solo friendly. You don't even need to join a guild or such there is automated matchmaking for most group content. You can play these games without ever interacting with any other players. And a lot of people do that because they care more about the world or story or things that don't need other players (see crafting, gathering etc.)

Heck even FFXI which soon will be 20 years old is solo friendly thanks to the NPC party members they introduced some years ago.

Not to mention the 'lobby' system in many games these days; unless you make friends by chance with people already playing online games, you effectively play with random people on your team, and random people on the other team.

Gone are the days where games in which you can join a regular server, where you see your friends, join a clan, etc. are the norm. Now you have to send friend requests to people and hope they accept, and even then, you can't play against your friends in casual play, only with them.

Recently I showed my little brother of an online FPS game from 2003, showing someone at a high skill level doing the map objective without help. The player killed everyone in sight with ease. My brother commented, "How the hell was that guy placed in a lobby with all these bad players?". To him, the only way that online FPS games work is that you queue in a lobby to be placed with people of a similar skill level. It didn't occur to him that you used to be able to join a server at a particular IP address and play with regulars and crack jokes with people you've known for years.

On the other hand I don't miss self-hosted lobbies "that" much. I used to play a lot of Dota, the original WC3 mod, and I don't weep for it. The host always had an enormous advantage, there was no penalty if someone left etc. But the community self-moderation was really strong, so leavers and such were weeded out after a time. But today? You just make a new account if you got banned or suspended, penalties are meaningless.

Ah, I understand that frustration; I suppose I had in mind more casual games, that is, no fixed size on teams (anyone can just join and play so long as you're not over the server-set limit of players), and unranked.

In ranked games (or games where the objective of winning is more important than just having fun) the lobby system does work better, because you're not really looking for community in that case. If modern games like Overwatch had both systems (join a server with regulars and make friends as 'quick play'; matchmaking for competitive), I think things would be better.

The only time I get properly annoyed in a game is when team sizes are fixed, and people are trolling or not pulling their weight. But on a server where anyone can join and you're chatting between spawns? That's fun. Sure, you care about the map objectives, it's not serious. If you lose you just stick around for the next map in the server's rotation and play more.

> If modern games like Overwatch had both systems (join a server with regulars and make friends as 'quick play'; matchmaking for competitive), I think things would be better.

afaik you can actually make lobbies in OW (game browser > create).

>I suppose I had in mind more casual games, that is, no fixed size on teams (anyone can just join and play so long as you're not over the server-set limit of players), and unranked.

This is my problem with survival games like Rust or DayZ. Really good concept, can be played casually, but somehow ends up ultra competitive if you play with randoms :D

But not being in a guild doesn't mean you're lonely. Maybe the random group finder and other pick up groups are enough to give you social interactions against loneliness?

I think it does help. I play Fortnite at least once a week with one of my buddies and we catch up on life while playing. We’re also in a group chat and share links and updates there.

My wife told me recently that she was jealous of my friendships because of how often we chat. Meanwhile, she’s the more social one and talks on the phone a helluva lot more than I do.

Like the article suggested, she definitely manages all the familial relationships with couple friends and keeps in touch with those folks. I see ‘em when I see ‘em LOL (she’s also on Facebook, I’m not).

I wouldn’t mind making new IRL friends but I simply do not care. If that happens, great. My small circle of friends I’ve known for at least a decade is enough for me.

Interestingly enough there are a lot of comments in this thread that seemingly support the authors statements.

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