Djinn Split Keyboard
github.com
github.com
I have an ErgoDash with a Dvorak layout and a 3D printed adjustable tenting stand. The Djinn is fairly similar, though the additions are features I don't care for (encoders, screens, LEDs).
I've bought most of the parts to make a Lagrange, but still need to order the PCBs. I expect this to be an improvement on the ErgoDash, since I can include the missing keys (F1-F12 etc).
Just buying a Kinesis Advantage2 would probably have been a whole lot less effort.
https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/
(And a discussion from nine months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26179311 )
I have always believed that the problem with ergonomic keyboard design could be solved for a majority of cases with one single design, optimised over a number of generations rapidly in about 3 years (or a more optimal period allowing you to iterate retail cycles and customer reviews and reactions as well as observations in actual use) and make a excellent long term investment for a relatively small amount of capital.
the capital amount of course wouldn't be small in every individual view of small, but I can definitely imagine the required capital investment can be kept in check within less than -$3mm and return overall very well real inflation adjusted over a very decent length of time.
(i tend to presume the existence of very strong IP law knowledge in the design and development and management team - this i would like to be overlapping roles - but about one third of the capital in any project like this would be allocated by me to legal and IP rights protection in any event because you don't want to be responsible for that with only product development experience no matter how well educated in IP law and practice you are . Product liability and environmental and ethical concerns would receive a significant budget today as well , especially when everything is outsourced (Logitech since 30 years effectively in the beginning ...)
pretty much all of them seem to be DIY, or, simply out of stock
The ones under "Assembled" are from small businesses or side businesses, or at times may be unavailable for months, or have week+ delays before delivery. There are some companies like https://falba.tech/ (EU) and https://bastardkb.com/ (Canada?) who make several models.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ is the best place to ask if you have other questions, including on other suppliers.
I used them for PgUp/PgDown (to scroll up/down in a terminal), mouse wheel scroll, and cursor keys.
However, my hack job eventually caused problems. I think I had an intermittent short somewhere. I removed the knobs, and I don't miss them.
I may add a knob on a horizontal rather than vertical axis, but I should 3D print something to hold it in the correct place if I do this.
Of course, I need to do a better job at advertising and keeping up with trends like OLED screens and rotary knobs. But as a plain-Jane Bluetooth split ortho keyboard, I fervently enjoy typing on it.
I haven’t used the new UHK, any of their addons, or the palm rest, so I can’t speak to those.
I would really recommend anyone who looks into buying one to also buy the palm rest since it's a pretty thick keyboard. I use a tenting setup and I don't think I would be able to do it comfortably without the palm rests.
A few months ago the key cluster arrived as well - it feels kind of gimmicky though since all I use it for is play/pause/next song and to switch to my chat workspace. Others might have better use for it though. The scroll wheel is nice but I'm already used to the mouse layer on the keyboard, so I seldom use it.
My only gripe is the USB-connection. The v1 uses a mini-USB connection that I felt would be the first thing to break on the keyboard (since the rest of the keyboard feels like it would outlive me), so I soldered one of those magnetic cable heads to the keyboard and bought a few cables that I have lying at every desktop I use, "mag-safe".
https://github.com/YangPiCui/ErgonomicVerticalKeyboard
This one is hilarious, the design caught my eye with its unique shape and the mandatory pro-Mormon proclamation (which at first I thought was a joke about the shape of the hands on the keyboard being prayer-like) until the creator told me to repent my sins.
I have it on a "gaming" mouse mat, i.e. an enormous mouse mat.
To solve the problem you describe I use a non-slip material by a company called Dycem[0], which I understand is primarily used by amputees and people with limited use of their limbs.
I've always gotten that niggly 'slight misalignment' feeling, ever since my first Ergodox 7-8 years ago. I know exactly what you're talking about and Dycem almost completely eliminates this for me. I lay my wrist rests and my board on it, and can make intentional microadjustments as I type, but those stay in place for weeks as long as I don't accidentally knock them out of place.
It's not cheap and there may be other similar alternatives, but I can say this one works.
Also because I type with the keyboard on my lap and I had to use the split on a piece of plywood to keep it flat...
I tried a Moonlander and really didn't jive with it, then tried a KinesiS Freestyle and love it.
Upon reflection, it's the ortholinear layout that made the Moonlander so much less comfortable for me.
Currently the best keyboard for my left forearm's RSI has been Mistel Barocco MD770 [1] but I've recently been aware how the staggering maybe forces the fingers to travel in slightly unnatural ways. These videos [2][3] from Ben Vallack demonstrate this nicely.
Thus, I'd like to test an ortholinear one, but with all the normal 75%/tenkeyless board keys in place. I personally don't need to optimize the right hand keys as much so I'm not interested in learning an oherwise crazy new layout just to test out if the ortholinearity helps. And, I really like having the split since keeping two halves of the board further apart helps keeping my posture in control. But this combo seems to be difficult to find.
[1] https://www.mistelkeyboard.com/products/d11cf7a73da49468e2a5...
You could try the X-Bows Knight / Nature, although that's still a rearrangement of the right side keys.
If you deselect "Traditional" and set the minimum keys to about 78, you'll see how few options there are: https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/
I have a layer(Media 4) that is activated when holding a specific key on my default layer so I can control my cursor: https://configure.zsa.io/moonlander/layouts/bdYBP/latest/0
Ferris Sweep (PCB is open source) with nice!nano controller.
However, it looks like they no longer sell the "heavy" and with Covid I haven't been travelling, no practicing the Gergo chords.
[0] https://keeb.io/collections/levinson-keyboard
[1] https://splitkb.com/collections/keyboard-kits/products/kyria...
You need a bracket to keep the halves in exactly the same spot every time when you're in split mode in order to get that muscle memory.
My main problem now is that I want Apple level low travel (and low profile) but also split. Guess I’ll wind up building my own eventually.
I also use the Norman layout on my ErgoDox, but Qwerty on normal keyboards. Hasn't really been an issue (other than learning Norman).
Though, when someone says "I don't want a keyboard with layers", it's obtuse to say "you don't want the shift key?!".
Many things in tech are trade-offs. There are big benefits which come with using layering, but there are also some downsides.
It's entirely reasonable for someone to prefer a more traditional keyboard layout, over a more niche keyboard layout which would take some time to get used to.
It’s not obtuse to frame “layers” into something the person is probably already familiar with. Even if they still end up disliking layers (that’s fine!) it helps bridge the gap on different keyboard layouts.
Besides reducing the number of keys, are layers good for anything else? Are there any websites with layers designed for specific editors, etc?
I use several different machines regularly (mix of Windows, MacOS, and Linux) and it is great to just have my custom stuff with me at all times. Macros are the only thing that is OS specific.
The most significant advantage, IMO, is allowing for reduced hand movement. -- e.g. enabling access to cursor keys or a number pad without needing to move your hand.
To an extent, layers also allow reducing usage of the (weak) pinky fingers in favour of the other fingers.
I have "move to previous virtual desktop", "move to next virtual desktop" with convenient key-chords; but these could be put on a layer as well.
I think "layers for specific editors" is unlikely. These split keyboards are great for "both hands on keyboard" tasks, but much harder for "mouse + keyboard" programs with QWERTY-specific keybindings, like Blender or whatever CAD.
The reduced number of keys has some benefits: the keyboard takes up much less desk space. With the DIY keyboards it allows for a lower cost: smaller number of keys also allows for a smaller PCB, and not needing to order as many key switches.
https://symboliclogic.io/years-of-pain-solved-by-really-obvi...
It requires an tray app called Karabiner Elements to link the function keys across keyboards.
It seems that nowadays we get either extremely peculiar split keyboards (without F-Keys, PgUp/PgDown) or something just doesn't feel right (PgUp/PgDown keys aligned vertically instead of horizontally, cursor keys with strange alignments and positioning, et cetera). I think that a "normal keyboard just with a certain angle in the middle" would be simple enough and great.
which I loved, but have not found a good replacement, they are either split with a smaller angle or are those peculiar fully split ones as you mention.
There's also MS Sculpt, with better keys: still rubberdomed, but less jiggly and way less clacky. The crowded home—pagedown column is actually alright once you get used to it, and I really don't use ‘delete’ and ‘insert’ much. However, the function-or-media switch is atrocious, pure disgrace as a design decision. I'm using ‘USB Overdrive’ to map ‘calculator’ to Fn instead, but it's still not the same. Might map the separate numpad, once I find batteries for it.
It's so bad. It's unfortunate because it's otherwise a pretty great keyboard; I'd love something similar with an Fn row.
Apparently craftier people even mod the controller out and a new one in, to run QMK: https://chrispaynter.medium.com/modding-the-microsoft-sculpt... (but still leave the switch untouched, for some reason).
I still miss mine.
No, the MS Natural keyboard is not as good.
I also like the straight columns and intensive staggering, they help (me) type without looking more easily.
What I find extraneous is all these screens and LEDs. I see that for many such keyboards are for showing off; for me they are a tool, and the very point of touch typing is that I don't need to keep the keys in my field of view!
I've been kind of thinking about upgrading for a while though, and there's an accretion of new features building up that are starting to make the idea seem a little less wasteful. The new generation designs like this that have an integrated screen for extra data _really_ appeal (my Ergodox is pre-RGB/backlighting, so you can't tell the keyboard's state at a glance); that, combined with hot-swappable key sockets, novel input mechanisms (rotary encoders for volume/Lightroom control!), the sort of tenting support the ZSA Moonlander supports etc. are all pretty exciting.
I've never quite managed to convince myself to spend time on keyboards as a hobby, but I'm so grateful others love it.
That said, I got mine from everyone's favourite PCB manufacturer: JLCPCB.
All the parts can be found on the BOM: https://github.com/tzarc/djinn/blob/main/Rev2a/Djinn-BOM.md
Only a couple of parts are actually dependent on the side you're soldering (and are listed on the parts BOM), virtually everything else is aligned in such a way that it can be soldered onto either side.
[0] https://keeb.io/collections/iris-split-ergonomic-keyboard - looks like the pcb design got a couple of updates since I've built mine, like onboard controller and usb-c, etc.
[1] https://imgur.com/a/k72o4p3After many hours of research on switch type (because I don't like noise or high pressure on keys) and some modding to the height lower it turned out pretty good.
Would recommend to anyone whose livelihood depends on what they type on the computer.
My custom Dvorak layout for the ErgoDox EZ Shine: https://github.com/ctsrc/ergodox-ez-shine-dvorak
What advantages are there of using one?
I mean they look great - some of them a bit gimmicky, some very experimental.
Do they actually fit a purpose?
- More keys for the thumbs allows for using the thumbs more instead of the (weaker) pinky fingers.
- I like symmetrical keyboards; it's more comfortable than the standard row-stagger.
- The custom firmware has some nice features which allow for reducing hand movement. e.g. putting a numpad layer where your hands rest. e.g. I have "go to prev/next virtual desktop" when I hit the keys "cv" or "m,".
- The keyboard firmware is on the keyboard itself. This is nice if you switch between different computers.
- More desk space for e.g. notes between the split halves.
Disadvantages:
- In the same way that e.g. a Vim config can be ultra-personalised to the point no one else can use it, the same applies to split keyboards.
- Mechanical keys can be quite loud.
- The keyboards are either DIY, expensive, or both. They can be quite difficult to acquire.
- It can take some time to adjust to a new layout. Moreso if you've not done per-finger typing practice with e.g. Dvorak layout.
- It's more difficult to use with "keyboard + mouse" programs like Blender, CAD, or videogames, which use QWERTY keybindings.
- As with any external keyboard, difficult/awkward to use with laptops e.g. at a cafe.
For me, getting a split keyboard was a matter of protecting my hands. I felt strain in my wrists and fingers when using a regular keyboard all day. With a split keyboard my wrists can stay straight and I was forced to learn the correct finger positions. I no longer use a mouse, but instead my keyboard's mouse layer keys, so I have no reason to move my hands away from the home position.
Of course most of the split keyboards, being made for enthusiasts, also contain a lot of other features like customisable firmwares and such.
Column stagger and thumb cluster placement are so personal and anyone switching to split ergo boards is forced to make compromises or spend insane amounts of money until they find the exact combo that suits them.
Where are you getting your parts (PCB, etc) and/or keyboards assembled?
I'm not sure a lot of PCB assembly houses would like reversible PCBs.
With QMK we get a lot of requests for "how do I display this", "how do I show that", so it's more a case of making sure it supports most of those scenarios.
Sadly with the silicon shortages, not a lot of people are getting the chance to build them... I'm sure we'd see some interesting usages if/when this display stuff becomes a bit more mainstream.
That said, I ended up creating a Discord months ago after a whole bunch of people were going to run their own GB, needed a place to "host" it... never eventuated due to the COVID logistics problem.
I also have videos typing a more difficult symbol-heavy JavaScript program. I was as the same slow speed between a standard keyboard, and this little split keyboard.
...but it didn't have all the keys I wanted, thus the Djinn.