And of course touch is way better than eyesight when you are supposed to be paying attention to the road. As someone else said, rough motor skills are safer and more appropriate in a car then controls needing fine motor skills.
NOBODY in my non-techie group of friends or family cares. Not.even.remotely.
I watch them struggle with their touch screens, I even listen to them rant, but when asked about it afterwards, it's fine. Just fine. Sexy. Sleek. Desirable. Why do I have to go and ruin everything?
Honestly, even HVAC - I watch my family with "Auto HVAC" constantly fiddle with it, as they scroll to some meaningless numbers - 18C, 21C, 24C, back to 20C, etc all in the same drive. Whereas my ancient Subaru knob stays in the same position through the drive, without needing to ever look at it. If it's on the right, hot air will blow; if it's on the left, cold air will blow. Whereas with Auto, you literally never know what you're going to get. It's not on conscious level - everybody thinks their Auto A/C it's awesome. Until you watch their actual sub-conscious behaviour on a drive.
I wonder if it's related
From a personal perspective, I'd rather set it and forget it. It's why when I rarely use the car AC, one button is all it takes and it adjusts to something between 70 and 73, which is about the same it would be at home. When it's cold, you know the heater will be turning on automatically and I don't have to worry about waiting for the car to warm up for heat to work - the auto AC knows when it's hot enough and blasts it full strength at the right time, instead of me having to fiddle with manual controls to get the right timing, for example. Ditto for hot weather - blasts cool air with the push of a button.
The beauty is that you can have both, and knobs and auto AC aren't mutually exclusive, although that's gonna be up to the manufacturer and their market research.
With manual control, I can immediately start or stop hot and cold air; with a climate system, I can merely propose some higher or lower temperature, and the system may or may not do what I want it to do. I temporarily drove a Buick that had such a system, and found myself constantly having to override what the 'intelligent' system thought I wanted.
I prefer manual control. If the vehicle is too cool, I can immediately halt the blower without having to change the desired temperature with the assumption that the 'intelligent' system will halt the blower for me.
I've come to the realization that many things are just better not being made 'intelligent', especially when it comes to cars.
The instant gratification of slamming an analog heater to full blast and knowing that hot air will immediately flow from the vents cannot be beat.
It’s not efficient, it’s not optimized, it’s not regulated to a steady state, but it what I want. And I’m the user.
These automatic systems are trying to, what, make the whole cabin achieve some set temperature? Who cares about the average cabin temperature? The airconditioner is pointed right at me. I care about the temperature of the air coming out of the vents and flowing over me. Assuming the back seat isn't populated, there's a whole volume of air back there being unnecessarily cooled..
HVAC's job is not to deal with radiation and sunray angles, nor to adjust for it, IMO. To that end, it's superb engineering.
My Tesla fails on this front. To fine tune it (which is quite necessary), I need to go through a layer of menus on the laggy touch screen and figure out which control I need to mess with to stay comfortable. This is dangerous.
Both in my 97 Town Car, and my 2011 Crown Vic, its set it and forget it, unless I'm running cold or hot that day.
Honest question: do you really see people touch the level of their ac during a drive?
Auto is actual temperature control. The system tries to stay at the set temperature. It’s a lot more comfortable that having cold air blasted in your face like we used to. I have never witnessed anyone changing it while driving, only flow control.
Honest answer, not fudged for sake of making a point - Yes. Absolutely. I don't know if hyper-expensive luxury vehicles do better, but I can vouch that my wife has been frequently changing in our 2012 Kia Sportage, 2016 RAV4, and now 2019 Honda Odyssey. I've observed others do so frequently in Toyota Corolla, Honda Civiv, Subaru Crosstrek, VW Golf & Jetta. Like Kerning or Norman doors, or a low battery in screenshot, once you notice it you can't help notice it ever forth.
So those are my observed facts - people fiddle with their auto A/C a lot.
Why? I have my theories, but that is something I'm less confident about and none of them may be correct or sufficient (I've tried asking people, but as mentioned, most have no idea they're actually doing it and it doesn't seem to be on conscious level; which is reasonable - my own adjustment has always been "automatic" until I started paying conscious attention):
- Perhaps it's just psychological. If I'm feeling cold, I don't trust the system and I turn it up. If I'm feeling warm, I want it colder faster. If it's -10C outside, I'll turn it up to 24C even though it may not get me warmer than if I just left it at 21C. Then it gets 24C and I'm hot. This may be just a case of humans using good system badly.
- I think however, is that system ignores some of the reality. The AIR temperature may be a steady 21C. But if the air is 21C in cabin on a dark cold night when it's -10C outside when the very windshield seems to suck the warmth out of my body, I probably actually want it warmer. If it's 21C air but noon July sun is blazing on me, I probably actually want ambient temperature colder. If I start a July trip heading south and Sun is blasting on me, I need A/C cooler; then I turn North-West and sun is behind me, and all this A/C is now chilling me too much. I think it's an error to think ambient temperature is all that our body cares to be comfortable - I think what we're wearing, how we're feeling, what the radiative environment is, etc, are all factors.
- Finally, it's that unpredictability and chasing. Heavily influenced by above, sometimes you're just comfortable, but A/C changes what it's doing because what it measures and what your lived reality is don't match, so you end up chasing each other.
Maybe 2021 Mercedes S class etc don't have that problem; maybe people have changed it and you never noticed, or maybe they genuinely haven't because your systems are better or people are using it smarter or they just care less or whatever other reason; but I have personally seen very few people set Automatic HVAC to a specific temperature and never touch it again.
My 100 Croatian Lipa :)
I want a car that has a dial for "hotter" or "colder" and that's it. I'll adjust it in response to my perceptions at any given moment. With a motion wired in to a couple seconds of muscle memory and not poking around layers of touch screen menus.
Some car manufacturers have figured out that some people don't want the fancy garbage. I bought a Nissan Kicks last year and it has every control as a simple manual knob or button; the touchscreen only controls audio features.
It helps you stay focused, when it's too warm or the air is stale people get sleepy.
I posted this elsewhere but feel it's relevant here too.
Part of it is that I often want a cool breeze regardless of the ambient temperature. I feel somehow more focused and relaxed with cool moving air, no idea why or how normal that is.
Air has more properties than temperature, that's the issue with auto AC.
If they use linear control that would actually help a bit.
What I would like is a range on the temperature. If it's between 17-21, don't bother wasting energy on getting it cooler or warmer.
My GF has the climate control in the car set to the max (28C) and regulates the temperature by turning it on or off.
Part of the reason she hates the auto setting is that if it's not blowing hotter air over her, she feels cold. And she hates feeling cold.
However leave the climate control on a higher setting and the car ends up uncomfortably hot.
For her, the ideal climate control would be one which regulated fan speed rather than air exhaust temperature.
That said, in our BMW i3 the temperature target is a physical knob, easily controlled while driving. So there's that.
While fumbling with some poorly designed UI, they don't appear to get as angry and exclaim, "This user interface sucks! My previous car had a button to turn the A/C on and off."
They just accept it. I could get philosophical (thanks for asking!), and I think that's a general problem with humanity. Too many are too accepting of just whatever comes along, and that's how we converge on terrible designs and terrible public policies and on and on.
-Sent from my Iphone SE
> since it makes almost all interaction better
Define "better".
Probably because constantly observing systems and thinking about how effective or efficient they are is way less effective and efficient than just using the system.
Then only difference is that in the old car I knew that when it was really cold and I reached a comfortable level, I turned the knob to about two notches left of center, in the red area. In every older car I ever had it was slightly different and I learned quickly where my preference was. That's just like the new car where, once my comfort level is reached, I set things back down to 74F and leave it there.
Do some cars not allow users to disable auto? Mine has a dedicated button to enabling/disabling it. Otherwise, I agree that red/blue seemed to be a little clearer, but it only took me a few days of cold weather to find the sweet spot, same as any car I've ever driven
HVAC aside, I agree on other issues. Touch screen audio controls are awful and much more distracting to adjust while driving. I have to be very care to pick my moment. I think if I was so inclined, I could set things up so that I could argue with Google Assistant to do some of this stuff.
That frustration is offset a bit by the fact that-- and this will amaze you-- a button will roll my windows up or down. Not some crank I have to turn. And another button on the "key" will unlock the door from like 30 feet away! But I have problems leaving my keys in the car because I no longer have to actually hold, turn, and remove a physical key to get out of my car.
Trade offs! Hopefully UX design will gently nudge use back to a better middle ground.
Once I’m near the correct temp, I just move the knob one click at a time.
For the seat heater, I reach down between the seats, feel for the switch, and push it. Never take my eyes off the road. I don’t want to be doing these things with touch screens, especially at night. Most of them are too bright anyway, they ruin night vision.
When I’m driving I use the buttons on the steering wheel to change volume, station etc, more complex stuff needs a touch screen (CarPlay and maps), that’s fine because of the buttons on the wheel.
My current car isn’t great - it has “lane assist” which turns itself back on every time you start, and is in a menu system to disable (albeit two physical buttons to press). rentals I’ve had recently just have a physical button near the gearstick which your turn off once and it stays off)
It’s a minefield buying a car and ensuring you get all the right features (a key, a spare wheel, physical buttons for controls)
Hi, have you found any small car (I am thinking Toyota Corolla/Camry Honda Civic/Accord sedans) that comes with a full size spare? I drive a 2007 Toyota Camry that I bought in 2019 for about USD 5k. I know Jeep Wrangler and bigger vehicles sometimes have a full size spare but I'm not particularly fond of driving.
People on YouTube joke and say Toyota Camry is the perfect car for people who don't like driving but I can't think of a better description that fits me.
Yep, but it hasn't been standard, and was a new feature for me in my new car. Believe it or not, so were the power windows.
>the keyless start nonsense offers no benefit.
The only thing it does for me is mean that it's now much easier to leave my keys in my car. I think this trend began when luxury cars started adding it as a high tech marketing point, and then it trickled down over time to most cars in cargo-cult fashion.
I'm not constantly fiddling with my home's thermostat, why would I be doing the same with my car's? I'm sorry all your cars have had such terrible AC systems.
I assume because at home I'm generally in constant shade and not as exposed to radiative elements. Whereas in the car, air temperature is only one factor. Outside sun, temperature of surfaces etc are additional significant factors
I've done the same in rentals but have always wondered if that helps. Shouldn't the car try to get the heat to 72 as fast as possible?
I suspect cars use linear control for heating and cooling, it's easy to implement and well understood. In that case it will not use max heat until it reaches the target and turning it to max could get you there faster.
It's actually really not a simple problem, look into control theory of you're interested.
Remember when you could answer your phone as you picked it up? Remember T9 input where you didn't need to look at the screen to type? Imagine a tactile solution on your onscreen keyboard but still being able to swipe... Imagine feeling where the 'answer' button was while you were picking it up and just clicking on it...
:sigh:
(Ironically, I was looking at the Nokia Classic series phones just last night)
Most of the rentals I've driven get it too, but they work differently than what you have at home, insomuch as they control fan speed and temp, they should haves unload temp sensor too.
Incidentally, I adjust my manual AC about as often as I do my automatic one.
Reminds me of Windows users.
But unlike a home, when a car is constantly changing direction, and speed, and sun is in your face or out of your face at times, perhaps you have heated seats that you've turned on, control based on a single temperature will always have difficulty making you feel comfortable. Better to control things directly.
Especially if you're one of the millions and millions of people who use different glasses for driving than you do for walking around.