Ask HN: How can I continue working as long as possible? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: How can I continue working as long as possible?

61 pointsthatsamonad61 comments

I know that a lot of people on HN are focused on retiring as early as possible. However, for a variety of reasons (some within my control and some not) it seems unlikely that I will ever be able to afford a comfortable retirement despite my efforts to save. I've heard from others in my peer group that they are in the same boat.

Let's say that I am in my 30s now, reasonably healthy both mentally and physically, and want to take steps that will allow me to continue working in a technical field for as long as possible (40+ years) so that I can maintain my income well into old age.

What are some things I should start doing now and/or think about doing in the future that will allow me to stay "on my game" in terms of being able to work and earn a living?

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I know these responses might be a bit different than the question you are asking, but they lead back to the deeper question about lifestyle / finances /longevity.

Marry wisely. One of the biggest financial hits I took was a very costly divorce.

Don't be afraid to move to lower cost areas. Maybe not today, but realize that you might need to at different points in life in order to maximize your savings.

Realize that you might need to find a career niche or even a different career that value your age and experience. I did this and it's working well.

Take good care of your body and mind so that you can continue to work.

Live modestly. This isn't about whether you drink Starbucks every morning, but rather whether you use your money overall in the smartest way possible. If you live modestly, you can live on less, which means if you get to a point where you need to make career compromises you are in a position to do that.

If you are in tech, consider going to work at blue chip firm that makes its money in tech. You'll have variety in your career and it is likely they will still be in business 10, 20, 30 years from now, ie: if part of your desire to work a long time also revolves around stability and the likelihood you won't lose your job in a merger, etc at an age where it would be hard to find a new job.

I am one of the people who never wants to retire even though I could have over a decade ago when I sold my first bigger company. At that time I tried retiring and found it terrible; I have tons of hobbies, a family and such but there are drivers in work (and more so in starting companies and growing them) that I cannot replicate. Or at least have not found a way to.

For me the most important is to keep starting new things and learning new very hard things (for me) and trying to apply them in business(es). The rest, at least to me, is rather obvious; stay healthy and don't overwork or work with toxic people. I made all those mistakes.

Another one is: learn to manage. If if you are a coder, your eyesight will weaken, you might get all kinds of physical issues even though fit; as a manager, even on a small scale, you can last much longer with those problems.

Build networks; you do not want to do job interviews at 60 if needed. Your network has to be solid enough to ask for a job and get one without any vetting. That is an advantage of getting older: this is very possible if you keep up this network.

But, rolling back to your post: why can you not retire? Thought about moving somewhere were this is not a problem? Because if you don't enjoy your work, it makes it vastly harder to keep it up.

> But, rolling back to your post: why can you not retire?

For background: I came from a poor family with a history of substance abuse problems. I lifted myself out of my family situation by attending and graduating college, but in order to do so I had to take on a combination of student loan and credit card debt, most of which I am still paying off despite having a decent tech industry income. No one ever taught me to save, so I had to learn budgeting and finance management on my own while I was in college. I didn't start really saving until a couple of years ago when things sort of stabilized.

Currently I am able to save about 5% of my income for retirement with a match from my employer. However, every "retirement calculator" that I use basically says I will fall well short of replacing most of my income in retirement, even if I assume Social Security will fill in a portion (which is uncertain to me). I also don't currently own my own home and that also feels like a very far off prospect if not an impossibility.

> Thought about moving somewhere were this is not a problem?

I have considered moving to a cheaper area, but unfortunately that means no longer being near some family connections so it's not a simple decision. My current job also adjusts salaries based on regional cost of living, so I'd have to factor that into the equation.

> I am one of the people who never wants to retire

Honestly, this is also a factor for me. I am very fortunate that I like the work that I do and work is, for better or worse, where I get most of my social interactions. I have some hobbies but none of them make me feel as engaged as when I am solving a technical challenge or working on a high-level business problem.

My spouse and I also joke that we might kill each other if we're both just puttering around the house without anything "productive" to do.

Firstly, congratulations for escaping your background, getting through college, and making your way into tech.

Secondly, while I admire the drive never to want to retire because you'd be bored, I think it's a huge power-up to be able to have what Nassim Taleb calls f-you money (enough money to be able to tell your boss, "F-you, I'm leaving" if they make one too many unreasonable requests. For me, having something approximating that (initially just six months' worth of expenses in cash) has allowed me to make better decisions, take some risks which resulted in good payoffs, and just generally have more fun. I'd highly recommend aiming for this rather than just accepting that you'll be working forever.

So with that said I'm wondering if you can go into more detail on your financial situation. If you work in tech in my country, I'd suggest it's possible for most people in tech to earn 100k+ if they're not utterly incompetent. (I realise I might be in a bubble here, but where I am and what I'm seeing this is reasonable.) If you're on that salary, a savings rate of 50+% is completely achievable. To have a savings rate of 5-10% while working in tech suggests to me that something's off. Are you able to share a bit more info on that? Is it the repayments on your debt?

> No one ever taught me to save, so I had to learn budgeting and finance management on my own while I was in college.

Just in case nobody has pointed this out to you yet, if you're in the US, how you use the tax system can make an enormous difference in your personal wealth and your generational wealth. Learning how to invest in tax-advantaged ways (backdoor 401k, tax loss harvesting, real estate transfers, trusts, donation funds, etc) is extremely complicated, but it is possible to deep dive enough to understand how it applies to you.

The US incentivizes a lot of risk taking and keeps an elite class by requiring obscure knowledge about tax laws. Most of it is "buy, borrow, die" with a lot of nuance to do it optimally.

US Dollars are losing value faster than ever, so saving in a bank is not a valid strategy. Optimally, all dollars should be invested in assets immediately, ideally assets you can easily borrow against at a low rate as you need dollars.

The whole system is crazy.

For really rich people, "life insurance" is the money they borrow against while they're alive, "living trusts" are how they pass money along to their heirs when they're dead, and "investments" are things they will never sell.

> Learning how to invest in tax-advantaged ways (backdoor 401k, tax loss harvesting, real estate transfers, trusts, donation funds, etc) is extremely complicated

I strongly disagree with this advice; middle class people trying to imitate rich people with trusts and financial advisors and so on are just letting leeches siphon off their money with fees.

Tax exempt investments are easy to find, they just pay less than taxable investments. If you're not in the top tax bracket, you're playing yourself.

Inheritance taxes only apply to the extremely rich anymore. Avoiding probate with a trust or something does not mean avoiding taxes.

>Most of it is "buy, borrow, die" with a lot of nuance to do it optimally

Oh, yeah, it's easy, step 1 is buy something, wait till it goes up. If it doesn't go up, don't buy it.

The federal estate tax exemption is still high, but state estate taxes are much lower, like a million to a million and a half. Anyone who has a decent 401k + house will have that on the east/west coasts. I had to help my folks make a trust so we don’t get double estate taxation last summer.

Also keep in mind that you might be able to live a perfectly satisfying life without replacing even half your current income. Track your spending, not your income, since right now you are probably paying a lot of income tax that you won't be paying when you stop working. If you can replace the amount of spending you want to support, then it doesn't really matter what percentage of your current income that becomes.

What do you consider to be a “decent tech industry income”?

Are you making at LEAST $150,000USD?

> But, rolling back to your post: why can you not retire?

Currently a SWE at $BIG_TECH_COMPANY making very good money. 100% of my income goes to paying off debt which, like the OP of this post, was acquired by attending school with no support from addict parents.

I have ~80k in debt. At 12.5%, 8.5%, and ~6% APR. I think I will at some point be able to retire if the next 20 years are the same as the past 20 years. Although: the stock market is at record high values and property prices are at record highs. I don't know how to explain why this is the case though. Nothing is preventing our 401ks from buying into stocks at today's price and the rug getting pulled and getting completely screwed.

Sofi has some really solid educational loan refinancing options if you’ve got good finance fundamentals (income, credit), might consider refinancing as much of the high rate debt that you can to enable faster payoff (which leads to more free cash flow for investment, leading to financial independence faster).

you definitely gotta refinance. I went from a 7.3 to a 3.0 and now I'm actually making progress on the payments instead of just paying a bunch of interest every month. the favorable(ish) terms with the government are not worth the extra money

100% of a SWE salary at a big employer should melt that $80k in no time flat.

> 100% of a SWE salary at a big employer should melt that $80k in no time flat.

2 years left at my current plan with 401k contributions, taxes, holding stocks, etc.

12.5% is crazy. Refinance! Take a lower % loan to pay off all your current debt.

The problem is who would lend you money for a lower % with zero collateral, which you could bankrupt yourself out of?

Education loans persist through a bankruptcy, which is why they exist in the first place.

But i do agree that 12.5% is really high - not credit card debt high, but pretty close!

Exactly. I can take out a personal loan and use that but those aren't a good interest rate and it would possibly effect my credit. By just paying off my loan in advance of their schedule my credit is being effected very positively.

That's interesting. They'd have to drag me back kicking and screaming into the office. I got used to having time for anything, and can't imagine myself voluntarily giving that up.

I don’t think this is very complicated.

Drink water, eat healthy, exercise regularly, get enough sleep, have an active romantic and social life.

https://www.reddit.com/r/starterpacks/comments/6wszws/why_do...

It sounds like you have career and budgeting down.

I would only add to this that you need to network and grow your skills to prevent potential ageism in the industry.

They would involve making lots of friends in the industry and continually learning. I would suggest really really deep learning. I recently worked with a guy in his 60s who deeply understood python and specific open source libraries (contributing to them as well) in a specific industry (e-commerce).

there are only a limited number of hours per day. how can you network substantially but at the same time keep up with all the new programming language fads and whatever this industry throws at you and still have time to cook proper food, go to bed early and take care of your health and family?

i have thought about this many times. sometimes i think that "networking" needs to be built into the job, and this is not the case for engineering roles.

I don't think networking is something that takes tons of time. Just be nice and curious. Show yourself to be honest, reliable, and hardworking. Maybe go to dinner every couple of weeks.

I agree with you that there so is many language fads and things you could learn. I spent several hundreds hours on different Udemy things over the last few years. That's why I think just focus deeply on one or two areas like my ecommerce friend. Any new grade can learn the basics of whatever fad in a couple months so you don't want to be competing for that anyway.

What do you think works well then, to network?

This is a hard question, like asking how you make friends.

I don’t go to conferences myself. But if I consider people in my network who I would vouch for it’s:

- Classmates from schools or various programs who I became friends with or joined the same clubs so I find them interesting

- Coworkers who got things done and seemed smart. They had my back and always made sure the right person got credit for things.

- Various meetups and events in my city. My particular interest is Biohacking and startups in general but I am sure there are crypto, healthcare, self driving, hacking, or meetups in whatever topic you might have interest.

- People I only met once or only through LinkedIn messages. They went out of there way to recommend for a job or help in some way when I asked.

I will say it’s far easier to network in person. People trust you more. And it’s far easier to network when you have done something cool to that other person. (self projects, sold a company, etc)

Always make sure to do what you said or promised you would do, dependability like this is almost impossible not to notice.

(Flip side is don't promise shit you know just isn't going to happen, and if you mis-calibrated make it known as early as possible you can't meet original expectations, people like that because they can plan instead of being blind sided)

I'm 75 and I am a software developer. Keep calm and soldier on.

I'm 60, and also a software developer. Are you still working full time as an employee?

Yes I am working full time.

is this in the US, europe or somewhere else, and may I ask how you found your gigs the past 15 years or so?

I'm 115 and still working as a programmer, things haven't changed so much since the 30s anyway, we were serverless back then as well, primarily coze we had neither servers nor computers.

back to monoliths now too I presume

I live in California. California is ostensibly part of the US.

I'll say this: headhunters are worthless after you turn 50. What works is jobs lists (like right here on HN), Craigslist and word of mouth.

What do you think has been most helpful in keeping you in the field for so long, and how long have you been a developer for? Did you come at it later in life? Do you have a strategy for continuous learning? or any other advice?

I'm 57 and still a software developer.

I _think_ I can retire, but I like software, and I like working with people. And lying on the beach bores me after a day.

Building your own business.

Generally, applying for jobs is a young person's game. As one gets older, a lot of the opportunities come through the network you've built, so investing in building a network is an absolute must.

But at some point, even the concept of "having a job" gets precarious. So investing early in building the skills to generate your income independently of an employer is super worthwhile for career longevity. It's harder to master than yet another framework, but will do more to guarantee your income.

A big part of building this skill is figuring out a market you can serve, and the needs of that market. It's more likely to be an existing product or service, but over time one builds their own unique take on it, so that over time one becomes the best at servicing a particular type of client. This, coupled with ongoing investments in networking, is the closest thing one can get to "job security" in modern labor markets.

I have followed this path the past 15 years. I am nowhere close to generating enough revenue to really not need contracting. The issue I have with my industry is that pushing innovative products is very hard, so you end up making me-too style products with your own take on it. So basically 90% the same as what other people are making. This becomes very boring, because as an engineer or designer I want to contribute something new and unique, basically an entirely new product different from what competitors are selling. So anyway, in the end I am in a situation where I need to make me-too products which I have zero interest in to be financially succesful, or choose to do the groundbreaking interesting stuff and have a really hard time making money. To be succesful with innovative products you need big marketing budgets.

Be open to management as well as keeping the tech skills.

The management - and more broadly people skills - are acquired just like tech skills are, and just like tech skills some learn them faster or slower than others. Just like tech skills these are valued to companies.

But one needs to mix, I think. So people management skills + tech == tech manager. Sales + tech = well, sales, or pre-sales. Or consulting if it's more tech than sales. Design / project management skills + tech == product manager. If you're an absolute SME, then you can be a tech lead, an architect, and so forth, but you really need to stand out.

The above are purely my career observations, and are subject to disagreement on semantics, the spirit or the letter of what I'm saying, and such. I don't claim absolute truth.

My other observation, though: people in their 20's have hotter skills than people with white hair who had to re-tool their skillset. And re-tooling every few years sucks in my opinion. Again, my opinion. I hate working on personal tech projects or studying on the side outside of work just to keep my head above water.

I'd rather go hiking, or to the bar.

There are a lot of areas where the fundamentals don't change that fast and experience counts.

A lot of people in their 20's can code like the devil, but running furiously in the wrong direction doesn't get you where you need to go fast, especially if the optimum path is not transparently obvious.

Biggest problem is managers made up too young who don't realise the huge value a steady hand and bit of experience can add.

I have been programming for 54 years. My best work was done in my forties. Push hard for a senior well paid position now. If you’re good, you will be worth it.

I have never stopped programming. Even now my work is exceptional although I don’t think I could get a job.

Keep at it. Develop non-programming deep domain knowledge. That can be a asset getting interviews When people think you’re too old.

Read the book “How Not To Die”. It will tell you everything you need to know about staying healthy and functioning for as long as possible. 100% based on research not wishful thinking or myths.

Look at the systems that are embedded into big organizations, and start learning them. There were stories recently about "bank python", so getting a good grasp of say the build process of a couple versions of the python build system and learning to make your own highly customized versions of python interpreters is likely to be a saleable skill for some while yet. The next COBOL might be python 2.x

Generally "stay willing to learn new things" seems like decent advice no matter what you're doing.

I agree with this. Python will be the new java.

Here's my list

  * Ergo keyboard
  * Learn keyboard shortcuts
  * Learn to use a mouse with both hands
  * Take hourly breaks 
  * Ask why things need to be done rather than jumping into them. There might be a better way.
  * Rest your eyes (look at long distances periodically)
  * Stay curious
  * Connect to people on LinkedIn
  * Consider consulting (you can often moonlight to try it out)

HTH

How do you get into consulting?

The consulting bar is often lower than the hiring bar, and pays better provided it's an organic referral and not like Upwork. You get offers in a similar way to getting jobs - write clever things on blogs/social media, seem like you know what you're doing, do a little more work than expected. Often it's worth taking your first job at a loss because it'll spawn more referrals if done well enough.

Here's my strategy:

   * decrease your expenses (or at least know them)
   * build up a cash cushion (I like a 6 month runway, including buying health ins if you need it)
   * moonlight (check your employment agreement) by asking folks you have worked with or met if they need help. LinkedIn is great (always ask if people know anyone who needs help, rather than "do you need help" as that is less awkward)
   * take the plunge when you feel like you have enough contacts

You can start building a name for yourself in a specific area by blogging or contributing to open source.

I wrote more about this here: https://letterstoanewdeveloper.com/2020/10/05/how-to-make-a-...

and here: https://www.mooreds.com/wordpress/archives/2190

HTH. My email is in my profile if you have specific qs.

Keep in mind that you may be healthy today but that literally can change in a single day. This brings so many problems when it comes to working

The eye strain is doing me in. I thought I would be working longer but that decision is made.

On general, figuring out a good ergonomic setup makes a huge difference. In particular for eye strain, having "computer glasses", and a large monitor, have solved it for me.

I use 55inch 4k TV's as monitors, AUD500 delivered.

Eyestrain literally vaporises.

Ergonomics (meaning, learn how to do your work comfortably without interruptions).

Management skills (meaning, managing others). It might not be your cup of tea, but not having them after a certain point devalues you.

Hobbies.

Being proactive in learning new techs you actually like.

Some great advice here.

I would underline that in (a reasonably successful) life one progresses from doing to owning. Ownership can be of skills and knowledge, of a network of friends and acquaintances, or simply a place to live. The doing (and doing the doing well) contributes to the owning, such that eventually when you can't actually do much anymore, you are still valuable to society.

Of course this all falls apart when the world changes under our feet, and the things we own become worthless!

The best way to work until you want to without being forced to retire is: 1. Focus on your health. 2. Find your passion 3. Work on your relationships, both personal and business. 4. Be ready to transition to a different role/career. You are unlikely to keep doing the same thing forever. You need to plan to move to something else. 5. Be your own boss, don't count on someone else to keep you employed.

Beyond the obvious stuff like ongoing learning of new tech, and doing your best to stay healthy:

I’d focus on building a diverse age range in your professional network. You need younger people in your network to stay aware of technical and cultural changes, and you need older people in your network to better understand the challenges you’ll face later on.

Personally I am investing 20K+ in a lifetime subscription of Elysium Basis/Matter. Also consider the bioengineering impact of apps given input of something like full genomic sequencing. Might be able to tell you about important things like how you respond to certain kinds of food, propensity for certain types of illness, etc.

What made you trust Elysium?

Reading their articles and other research about NAD+, B-vitamins and pterostilbene, and basic biochemistry knowledge from a textbook. Nobel prize laureates as advisors. After consulting with my own doctor, he said the supps were good with no issues according to the info in his org and personal knowledge.

If you have any interest in defense: it can be tricky to get your foot in the door because you need someone to sponsor you for a clearance, but if you get TS/SCI, you'll have engineering work forever

Options: 1) be good at what you do, but keep up with tech trends. Tech can fall away. 2) start your own business. Not trivial, but an option. Keep up with tech trends. 3) get a government job.

> it seems unlikely that I will ever be able to afford a comfortable retirement despite my efforts to save.

You aren't doing it right then.

Switch to a mostly stock-based compensation. Capital gain is much better than employment income.

He mentions having a huge pile of student loans and credit card loans to pay off due to having to finance his college years by himself. So while your general advice for buding wealth is correct, switching to mostly stock-based compensation probably isn't an option for him by the sound of his writings.

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