Tesla drivers left unable to start their cars after outage | Hacker News Reader

Tesla drivers left unable to start their cars after outage

bbc.com

77 pointsBud58 comments

This is basically a slam piece. Yes, our Teslas and our friends were not accessible via the app for a while, and it raised some eyebrows - but unlocking via Bluetooth during this outage was not an issue for anyone I know. "Tesla drivers left unable to start their cars after outage" as a title is beyond misleading. Remote unlock / remote climate were down, but nobody was "unable to start their car", you just had to walk into bluetooth range for it to unlock instead of being able to do so remotely from anywhere with an internet connection. Interestingly enough, no author info/credentials on this article.

> Interestingly enough, no author info/credentials on this article.

This is typical for BBC articles. E.g., https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59358070 or https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-derbyshire-59359263. I have no idea why this is their policy, but it isn't a special feature of this article.

Same with the Economist and a few other publications.

Not all Tesla's have Bluetooth unlock. The pre-refresh X and S require a server based unlock.

All 3, Y and 2021+ S and X will work with just Bluetooth.

Why is this even an issue? Don't all Teslas also come with a key fob that doesn't require any bluetooth?

All Tesla's come with either a fob or an NFC keycard. Owners are recommended by the car/manual to always keep them available.

But the convenience of just walking up to your car and it unlocking with your phone is enough for many people to take it for granted, and forget those other entry methods at home.

Most of us are more and more dependent on our phones for more and more things.

I know I'm often pretty sloppy about having backup printed information when I'm traveling for example. And, while I do still carry a (small) wallet (really just a business card holder), even that is becoming increasingly anachronistic. Also maps while hiking, etc.

That would mean if you park your car in a garage that blocks mobile coverage you’ll never be able to start it again. Sounds unlikely.

Only if you rely on only the app for unlocking. Whether you think it sounds unlikely or not, it's documented and people have run into this before with the S/X when data was unavailable.

You should always keep the fob or keycard around for safety.

The app and car communicate directly over Bluetooth for a number of functions, like lock/unlock, popping the trunk, and starting the car. This outage didn’t affect that (I drove my Model 3 during this time period).

You can start the car over the internet, too, but this is not typical, and the app actually warns you when you try to to do this.

Finally, the Model 3/Y have backup keycards that Tesla encourages you to keep with you just in case your phone dies. The app tells you this when you first pair your phone.

Yeah this article is complete bullshit written for clicks, like most other modern journalism. I have an $83,000 Audi e-tron. The app to unlock and lock the car, as well as remote start has not worked since they did a “back end upgrade” in July and Audi engineers can not figure out how to fix it.

There are no articles written about how “Audi users locked out of cars since July” since that doesn’t pass the sniff test but when you bring up Tesla all logic goes out the window.

The Tesla App seems to be divided into convenience features (which use an Internet connection) and a key (which uses Bluetooth).

The key part does not rely on Tesla's servers to operate (except probably for initial setup?). I had no problem unlocking or starting my Tesla during the outage.

Sadly, the App (convenience part) isn't 100% reliable. It occasionally fails to connect to the car and the only way to get it to work is to force close it. However, I have never had the key part fail to work.

It’s really important for Tesla drivers to consider the keycard as a key that you must carry at all times, and the app as a (blissful) convenience that mostly works. I’ve had my phone die while running errands, not realizing I wouldn’t be able to unlock the car to charge my phone. I just keep the keycard in my wallet, definitely will keep doing that with the added potential for server outage.

In the dead phone scenario, one thing I didn’t realize was that I could borrow a phone, call my wife, have her remote unlock and also start the car so I can get on my merry way while my phone gets sufficient charge to boot back up.

You can also call Tesla roadside assistance. I believe they’ll also open the car for you.

This would affect pre-2021 Model S and X models (pre refresh).

They lack the Bluetooth unlock. The Model 3 and Y would be unaffected as they've always had the Bluetooth unlock. The post-referesh X and S also are unlockable via Bluetooth.

Regardless, always carry your keycard or fob. The Bluetooth connection or pairing isn't always reliable in my experience.

Why can’t I just use a message signed with my existing private key to access my car? Why does Tesla need to have servers in the middle?

Tesla cars support:

* Unlock by NFC keycard * Unlock by bluetooth using the app * Remote start by app (over the cell network)

AIUI the latter was down. I don't think the bluetooth would be down - that one works even without cell service - but I didn't try it during the time of the outage. Regardless, you really should carry the keycard around just in case your cellphone runs out of batteries or something.

Making access to a vehicle dependent on a cloud service also adds security vulnerabilities that didn't exist before to real world objects. Perhaps Tesla should partner with the MPAA to create a public service announcement about this. I can imagine:

"You wouldn't steal a web server..."

It’s not dependent. You have a physical keycard that lets you start and drive the car. The app also lets you start and drive the car with no internet over Bluetooth. The only thing not working here was the OTA remote administration of the car. The article is misleading.

You're right, I apologise. I (meant and) should have said something like "making the car's security dependent on", in the sense of a weakest link, or additional attack surface.

If the bluetooth works, I'm surprised the app wouldn't automatically switch to that when the RPC cloud call fails.

As far as I understand, the users could not open the app at all - because it could not connect to Teslas servers.

Interesting. Seems like that would be an everyday issue...plenty of dead spots in cell coverage, underground parking garages, etc. Or perhaps they check for "no network", but not "network is there, endpoint is borked".

The Bluetooth unlock worked fine during this outage. The only feature unavailable was “remote unlock/start” where the user is not within Bluetooth range of the car.

This is absolutely bonkers to me. Why does a car need electronics at all to open the door? Were they not bored enough in design?

My car has keyless fob-proximity entry and a key if the fob, or the car, runs out of battery power. Like a car does.

Why can’t you use a key to turn a lock?

It’s an electric car, it doesn’t seem unreasonable to have an electronic security system tied to locks, alarm and immobiliser. If there’s no power you’re not going anywhere anyway.

If there’s no power, you still need to be able to get in or out of the car. It doesn’t matter if the 12V or the HV electronics are failed: you cannot leave somebody with only breaking a window as the method of ingress or egress from a physically intact vehicle. It is genuinely mystifying.

There's a mechanical door handle on the interior.

If you run out of batteries completely and need to get in the procedure is:

1. Open a small panel on the front and apply 12V to the emergency cables to unlock the frunk (this only works if the car is powered off as I understand)

2. Jumpstart the car's low voltage battery, located under a panel under the frunk

3. Unlock and open the door normally

4. Attach an EVSE charger to get the HV back online as well

> There's a mechanical door handle on the interior.

Only the front doors in the Model Y[0] and Tesla warns using them "May cause damage to the window trim."

[0] https://i.redd.it/aicn8uafkto41.png

As a matter of practice, no one would carry a physical, metal key they use once a year. The key-card tackles this problem. It can be tucked away in a wallet.

I carry a physical, metal key for my car that I’ve used once in four years. It’s part of the key fob. It’s on my key ring. I carry a physical, metal key I’ve never used. It unlocks the back door of my house. I carry another physical, metal key I’ve never used too, now that I think about it: the one that unlocks the keypad front door if the battery dies.

Do you not have other keys? Or like, is it up to Amazon or whoever, along with battery electrochemistry, to let you into your house, too?

(“Physical, metal key”. That actually makes me incredulous, to be honest, as if carrying three grams is a burden. Are we just a parody of ourselves now?)

This is like carrying a thick wallet with every card you might ever need. It's logistically advantageous, but most of the time it just gives you back pain (thick wallets in back pockets mess up posture). You can do what works for you! But I like to stash fail-safe keys in strategic places, like a house key in the car, and a car key in the house.

By "physical, metal key" I'm just disambiguating between key fobs, key cards, phone-keys, and tumbler keys.

I only carry my phone and my wallet when I go out. If I’m driving I bring my car’s key fob, no attached keys. I get in through my garage. If the power is out for some reason, I can grab my spare key hidden on the property. Why would I want to bring a physical, metal key around with me? Is it the 1900s?

I love the framing "key versus technology" in the article. Aren't (electronic) keys technology, too?

Aren't non-electronic keys technology, too?

That's why it was put in parentheses… ;-)

Can we now acknowledge that Tesla is never going to have highly reliable, mission-critical software. Its just not in their culture.

Man, it must suck to not really own the car you own...

I hate it enough with my computer and phone.

This is the world being built around us. You don't own anything and even the stuff you do own has a lot of caveats that sure make it seem like you don't own it.

In the future, if your social credit score gets low enough, every automated thing in the world will be actively trying to kill you.

An asteroid will be our only hope then.

That's assuming Rio Tinto Aerospace Inc. doesn't own the asteroid and it's legally authorised to eject you whenever you are deemed unprofitable.

In the future, most people will rejoice at every person who dies because that means that everyone's carbon ration will be increased. Yeah I'm writing a dystopian novel write now about the eco future (see my profile). I think a lot about how bad could it get.

Television owners are slowly learning this as advertising is rolling out to their home screens.

In the case of Android it started with advertising streaming services and it's allegedly now expanding to advertising (sorry, suggesting, to use their terminology) theatrical releases that you can't even stream.

Yes, "Smart" is just a label meaning "You don't really own this, the manufacturer does"

I’ve gotten into woodworking as of late because there is great value in a collection of tools and processes that don’t involve the internet or a piece of electronics more complex than a MOSFET unless I specifically invite it in—I find it restorative.

Nobody can go “hey you don’t own that bandsaw unless you upgrade”, and the stuff that comes out of the shop on the other end is nice.

Enjoy it while it lasts. Home Depot has been hard at work adding drm to their power tools:

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20210802/07490447288/home-...

I don’t buy tools sold at Home Depot. (Consumables, sure, but not tools.) The nice folks at Laguna and Harvey and Rikon and Festool still seem to understand how a customer relationship works.

You can’t actually own a house. You rent it from the government and if you don’t pay the rent you’re evicted. They call the rent property taxes but that doesn’t change the dynamics.

That’s like saying you rent your wallet from the thief.

Not unless you change the meaning of rent and thief completely. I don't see the analogy at all.

Indeed, we even haven’t really owned things that require electric power and depend on external supply. Internet is the new “electricity.”

> "There will be a secondary mechanism to get in or out of the car beyond the app, the difficulty will come for drivers if they are not carrying it," he said.

Deadlocked inside your car because the app is down is a scary thought in summer.

It's always a good idea to keep a window-breaking tool in your car for emergencies.

Just seems silly to have to break a window because of an internet outage.

> Just seems silly to have to break a window because of an internet outage.

Not a realistic scenario. You might not be able to get in (though that's also a happy path of really odd circumstances that would have to occur), but you can always get out either using the manual release, or you just open the door normally since an Internet outage for the app wouldn't affect you opening the door from the inside.

Tesla's have a manual door release, you cannot get stuck inside because of a software problem

Your phone connects and unlocks the car with Bluetooth, not with the internet.

It’s made so that you can unlock your car if you’re 5 levels deep in a parking structure.

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