Those "free" trades may be costing people more than having a 'traditional' fee, and claiming otherwise will get you fined for false advertising as Robinhood found out:
> The Securities and Exchange Commission today charged Robinhood Financial LLC for repeated misstatements that failed to disclose the firm’s receipt of payments from trading firms for routing customer orders to them, and with failing to satisfy its duty to seek the best reasonably available terms to execute customer orders. Robinhood agreed to pay $65 million to settle the charges.
* https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2020-321
Further, I'm not sure 'free' trades may not be a good thing: it's long been observed that the more active a person is in trading, the less they tend to generally make compared to market averages. Some friction in trading seems to be a good idea as it forces one to actually consider the action you're about to take and whether it's actually a good move.
The dynamic here is to pull in tons more retail investors, all of whom are at a disadvantage compared to firms. Robinhood is a gambling app marketed as an investment app, and we should start regulating it as such.
Random is not actually all that bad! I got what I wanted. Professional traders will prefer to trade against random traders because trading against someone who actually knows what’s going to happen is bad for them. This means trades by random traders get sufficiently subsidized that trades are free for us.
When buying or selling we often pay for convenience, and when the cost is very low, it’s not worth worrying about. In just about every other business, the prices we pay for convenience are a lot higher.
Is this true? My understanding is that Robinhood was fined millions for taking more PFOF (vs price improvement) than they disclosed. At no time were they below NBBO for the vast majority of their trades—the difference was just that they were only giving consumers 20% of the better then NBBO prices they were getting, which was lower then many other broker-dealers, and taking the other 80% of the spread for themselves. From the SEC order:
For most orders of more than 100 shares, the analysis concluded that Robinhood
customers would be better off trading at another broker-dealer because the additional price
improvement that such orders would receive at other broker-dealers would likely exceed the
approximately $5 per-order commission costs that those broker-dealers were then charging. The
analysis further determined that the larger the order, the more significant the price improvement
losses for Robinhood customers—for orders over 500 shares, the average Robinhood customer
order lost over $15 in price improvement compared to Robinhood’s competitors, with that
comparative loss rising to more than $23 per order for orders over 2,000 shares.
However, the broker-dealers that analysis was comparing Robinhood to charged around $5 for per-order commissions. Whether $15 of price improvement for trades of tens of thousands of dollars is worth $5 of commission fees for small trades is not, to me, an obvious call for Robinhood to make. In total, the SEC determined that Robinhood traders lost $34MM over 2.67 years (or $13 million per year) vs using another brokerage firm, but that that loss was almost certainly concentrated in those doing big trades, and customers trading under 100 shares of stock per transaction were benefitted by Robinhood's policy.99% of people are coming out ahead with robinhood.
This is quickly being solved with modular blockchain architectures. If you haven't read about zkrollups yet I suggest looking into that. While still in early stages transaction throughput on Ethereum has scaled from ~13 tx/s to ~2500 tx/s with rollups.
If you time it right it's more like $40-50. Not great, obviously, but it isn't "hundreds".
And ultimately, the problem goes away when centralized exchanges provide direct on-ramps to L2's -- which is already happening with some smaller exchanges.
If you want or have a need to add more funds to trade with, then it's an additional bridging fee, but not every tx is $40-50.
Free might be too expensive. We don’t need to stop there. They might be making enough money to pay us.
Just like Facebook and google are free, they could pay us to use them with the profit they make from us.
I deal with a credit union and they pay me $5/yr for having an account (well, I did buy a $5 share to become a member).
Why does one of the brokerages not pay us then? Did they all sit at a meeting and discuss with each other that they should compete until it is free, but to cease competing after that?
Free? I only know of Robinhood and that's only for US, and you get frontrun anyway. If you are interested in holding equities only for value appreciation then I can understand DeFi not sounding that interesting. But if you are into saving, lending, leverage or market making then it should at least tickle curiosity.
More: https://www.nerdwallet.com/best/investing/free-stock-trading
Also I recommend subscribing to Matt Levine’s email newsletter. He covers stuff like this and is also very funny.
We should be careful with these claims in this context.
The layer 1s that have sub-second finality tend to be heavily centralized either relying on a very small pool of DPoS-backed and I slash able validators, or a completely centralized protocol component (relay) that is a trusted component of the system.
They get low fees and speed by keeping central control, but unlike the large brokers we’d traditionally use. The difference is that they don’t protect their users or have any consumer protections while still having the same ability to censor you or extract value from you.
Layer 2s can solve this, but they currently have training wheels on which give operators a high level of control (in some cases, they can freeze assets). Once training wheels are off, layer 2s will give us low fees and fast finality while users are still protected from having their assets frozen or stolen.
>Free? I only know of Robinhood and that's only for US, and you get frontrun anyway
any sources for this? AFAIK they make money off the bid-ask spread, but you're guaranteed at least the NBBO.
Robinhood Crypto does not guarantee you the NBBO because the NBBO doesn't exist.
Yeah sorry, I was pattern matching on "robinhood frontrunning" and didn't take the fact we're talking about crypto trading into account. With that in mind, they're not front running you, they're just providing worse rates and making money off the spread. It's basically how the "no commission" currency exchange places you see at airports works. They sell EUR to you at 1.15 EUR/USD, but they buy EUR from you at 1.10 EUR/USD.
Due to the nature of x*y=k pools, the spread would just be 2x the fee (but increases based on how much you transact vs how much liquidity there is). Or you can think of it as 0 spread with 1bps fees on both sides for the usdt/usdc pools.