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Comment by another_story | Hacker News Reader

In Taiwan the locals, usually the elderly, sweep and clean near their own houses or the parks where they congregate. Some do it as part of a neighborhood group, while others clean parks and areas near temples for religious reasons. Good way to build community.

On another note, let people read without pop-ups please.

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I used to clean up near my front door, but it became overwhelming.

I live in a "bad" part of SF, by choice - I have a huge, cheap apartment. Until about 5 or so years ago, the homeless situation was not that bad around me. There would be periods where people with problems would be around, but generally it wasn't a big deal. I'd clean up around my and my downstairs neighbor's doors, and a bit wider if needed. Some of the folks that used to live on the street here would also help keep things clean.

Then the cops decided we are good place to funnel campers. Inevitably, dealers followed, and the street went to hell.

I won't go in to all the ins and outs, I can become very boring on this topic. Suffice to say, when you have a local small business that considers piles of garbage a competitive advantage, sweeping out my bit of sidewalk became pointless.

Well, I'm actually fascinated and wish to hear more. How did you figure out that the cops were funneling people?

He probably sees police trucks show up and unceremoniously dump homeless people and their belongings on their street.

He probably lives in the Tenderloin. It’s right next to union square which is full of hotels and tourists, and adjacent to Market Street which is all upscale shops, offices, and hotels that are heavily policed. The Tenderloin is known for having a larger population of drug dealers and people experiencing homelessness than many other parts of the city. I don’t think I’ve ever seen cops dump people off in trucks as the other commenter suggested, but I would characterize it as being policed differently

And it's a good model I think, to take some responsibility for public property. Not just "your sidewalk", as in the sidewalk that touches your private yard, but also "your street", "your town center", and "your local parks". I'm not interested in hearing about if it's "your job" or "your trash", if there's a situation you are unhappy about, and you can directly impact it, why not do so?

I live in Oakland, CA, just off a major street. When I moved into this place I got annoyed at the litter on the street, until I eventually just started picking it up. The first day, I filled a trash bag travelling just 100ft along the sidewalk. A week later I would fill a trash bag every two or three laps of the entire street. Now I think I fill one trash bag per week. And I just feel better looking at, walking, or biking down my street, and I've gotten good conversations with neighbours to boot.

Culturally, right now, people will keep on littering on American city streets, and you and I aren't equipped to change that. It takes surprisingly little effort to carve out a considerably improved space though, and I find that when I consider it a gift to my neighbourhood and a constant task fighting against entropy (rather than something that can be "finished"), it's easier.

("you" in this context is a general "you", and not meant to be singling another_story out, of course)

I pick up litter when out in nature, because I don't think anyone but me will pick it up. In a city like San Francisco there's a multi-billion dollar budget and a sanitation department that tax payers pay for so that they won't have to do it themselves. It's ridiculous to pay taxes and then be told to clean street trash if you don't like it.

Yup. There are doggie bags on my pack despite the fact I've never owned a dog. There's also a larger trash bag in the pack in case I encounter larger stuff and am in a position to bring it out. (I only pick up larger stuff if I'm not going to be making much more use of my poles. Otherwise it's just too much of a pain handling a trash bag and my poles.)

This idea that a lot of money is involved therefore every imaginable need must be fully covered is extremely dangerous and unreasonable. Just one example of how this goes is residents have pushed the City to take responsibility for trimming of all street trees which used to be the responsibility of property owners. The result is a lot of trees either ignored or hacked to death by untrained workers in a hurry. Large amounts of money are not infinite amounts of money and still have to be carefully managed in order to get good results and make reasonable trade offs.

Hes not asking that “every imaginable need be fully covered”.

He’s asking for the well funded sanitation department to do their job.

And yet that is completely unrealistic. The City currently funds weekly teams clearing out all the most troubled areas and that costs a fantastic amount up front as well as competing for increasingly precious landfill space. Defining the job of public works to be picking up all the trash that veritable armies of homeless generate does not make that job possible. You are absolutely and undeniably using your imagination to balance a spreadsheet that is a complete mess and that is not working and will never work.

Well the “armies of homeless” are also a public policy failure. If the homeless policy across the 50 largest American cities was identical, there would not be so many homeless in SF.

Don’t think so. There are cultural differences, weather differences, etc.

In Canada they clear the snow/ice from the pavement in front of their own house. I've since heard it's (in at least some areas?) required though, which ruined the image a bit.

(And sort of odd isn't it? Instead of taxing you and providing you with this service, we'll require you to do it? Seems inefficient.)

This is true in most of the U.S. as well. If you've got a sidewalk in front of your house, you'll get a fine if you don't clear the snow 24-36 hours after the end of a snowstorm.

A workaround is to buy your home in a neighborhood without sidewalks.

> A workaround is to buy your home in a neighborhood without sidewalks.

...or where it doesn't snow.

That’s a terrible workaround, now your neighborhood is non walkable.

I live in a quiet suburban neighborhood that has no sidewalks and it’s very walkable.

Do you walk to work and to the grocery store?

It’s highly dependant on cities. It’s not happening at all in Quebec for example.

Toronto is probably the poster child of that idea but it is actually going away. The city decided they will plow the sidewalks themselves starting this year. While you were “required” to do it, tons of people wouldn’t do it and enforcement wouldn’t be consistent. This would leave you with dangerous sidewalks where the people who need it the most (disabled, elderly) would be stuck walking in the street because the roads for car would be perfectly plowed.

if someone slips in front of your house because you failed to clear snow from the sidewalk I believe you can get fined or sued

I gave up cleaning the trash in my apartment courtyard as certain neighbors took it as an invitation to dump ever increasing amounts of trash (including entire kitchen sized trash bags) knowing "someone" would pick it up. Sometimes you just can't win.

This is exactly the tragedy of the commons.

Similar here just north of SF, I find it to be a bit of a community psychology thing. I found it the same when I lived in Japan (though wherever you go there are always those few houses, or that one park...)

It's not official but a lot of us take trash bags out on our walks and hikes too. I like to save up the really out of reach stuff for new years day. It's a nice way to start the year and kinda fun to go MacGyver on those really long-neglected beer bottles under blackberry bushes. Close in feel to geocaching...

It wasn't until I rented a floor of a house (and garage and front yard) in SF (Outer Sunset) last year that I really noticed the problem in North America with personal responsibility and keeping streets clean.

I'm constantly picking up litter from my tiny front yard, sidewalk, and curb. Cigarette butts are the worst and I bought a small electric leaf blower to help deal with it quickly. It wouldn't be as much of an issue if everyone took care of their own front property as well, instead of leaving litter and letting it blow onto mine. Also doesn't help that people see a full garbage can at nearby fields and just place their waste next to it instead of bringing it with them.

I think the big problem here is that there's no inertia to keep the place clean.

I recently ran into a great youtube video※ about how Japan stays clean (spoiler: it's about personal responsibility from a young age). When kids have to clean their own classrooms and be held accountable by their peers, they grow up with good habits. When I lived in South Korea, it wasn't as spotless as Japan despite a similar education, but not as bad as North American cities.

I would absolutely support littering enforcement officers, paid by large fines (in addition to community service), constantly roaming areas. Not sure how practical it would be in lower density areas like Outer Sunset but I can see it working along any commercial strips, or downtown.

※ - https://youtu.be/BOGMkgnc2YY

Singapore is sparkling clean. Like walk down a back alley in the center of the city and you will not find trash. It’s almost creepy.

It’s mostly certainly not due to civic mindedness. Join the Singapore subreddit and examples abound of locals throwing trash everywhere and generally being dicks.

It’s clean because the government has a pool of cheap labor they can use to constantly clean.

I spent some time in Ogden, Utah. It was amazingly clean. It was very nice to experience.

> I think the big problem here is that there's no inertia to keep the place clean.

Huh? Isn’t the big problem the litter-ers and their littering?

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