Hacker News Reader

Comment by me_im_counting | Hacker News Reader

Are they? At least among wealthy men, it seems much more common for them to remarry and make a brand new second family while the ex wife is left doing most things for the first set of kids. Plus, it’s significantly more common for men to leave their wives when their wives get diagnosed with cancer than vice versa.

IMO, divorce sucks worst for whoever is the most conscientious person and invested in the family, regardless of gender.

PS - I am divorced too (no kids though) - sorry to hear you’re going through that.

View on HN

> At least among wealthy men, it seems much more common for them to remarry and make a brand new second family while the ex wife is left doing most things for the first set of kids.

Wealth changes the equation. When you are certain that you can look after your kids indefinitely or for a sufficient amount of time you can go on with your life, take a sabbatical, or whatever floats your boat. You don't need the same energy GP mentioned as someone who needs to work from 9 to 5 the next day after the divorce.

> IMO, divorce sucks worst for whoever is the most conscientious person and invested in the family, regardless of gender.

This is a more thoughtful way of putting it. Thank you. I do think that men tend to get the raw end of the deal when it comes to custody though.

Yeah, that does seem to be true, not that I have particular expertise on that. Sorry that you’ve had to experience that firsthand and I hope things get better for you. I think men and women have their unique challenge “clusters” with divorce (though they are tendencies, not the rule) and custody seems to be a rough one for men.

Fwiw, the large majority (~70%) of divorces are initiated by women in the US. Most divorces are not caused by cancer, and the advantage men have in re-marrying later are known and appreciated. So I think we can take the fact that most divorces are initiated by women as prima facie evidence that women recover better from divorces.

It’s interesting how my comment seems to be taken as an assertion in the opposite direction: that women have it categorically worse in divorce. I believe that reality is much, much more nuanced than either “direction”.

That being said, who files is not a perfect signal. I know a few women who filed when it was in reality the husband who ended the marriage.

No one is making categorical claims, nor is any signal perfect. But you questioned whether men are worse hit by divorce, and I offered some evidence that they are.

It could equally be seen as evidence that staying in a bad marriage is worse for women than for men, so women will risk more to escape that scenario.

(Presumably people file because they expect a better life outcome for themselves from divorce than from not divorcing. This could be because they expect a better outcome due to divorce, as you say; or that they expect a worse outcome if they don't divorce, which is my alternative possible interpretation. I'm neutral on which is actually the case.)

To expect a better outcome with divorce is to expect a worse outcome without divorce.

Suppose a guy and a girl married are both 5/10 in happiness, and that if they divorce they will be 2/10 in happiness for five years, then will recover.

Scenario 1

The woman and the man expect their happiness in marriage to stay around 5/10.

After five years of divorce they have recovered a bit, but the woman recovers more and is now 6/10 but the man is 4/10.

Scenario 2

An alternative is that even though they are both 5/10 in happiness to start with, the woman's expected future happiness in the marriage after five years is only 3/10 while the man's is still 5/10.

Suppose they divorce and both recover the same to 4/10 after five years.

Analysis

In both scenarios after five years the woman will be happier if she divorces, and it may make sense for her to file for divorce depending on her risk tolerance.

Woman filing for divorce more could be evidence for scenario 1, which is my interpretation of your post. It could also be evidence for scenario 2, which is incompatible with your interpretation. It is not so simple to say that more filing is evidence for a better recovery for women.

> Woman filing for divorce more could be evidence for scenario 1, which is my interpretation of your post.

This is not what I intended. I was just trying to counter the suggestion by me_im_counting that men are likely to do better following divorce because of reasons like (according to him) men find it easier to remarry, women are more likely to keep the kids, and men divorce in response to cancer. All of those, as explanations, are in tension with the fact that men are less likely to be initiating divorce.

So following a divorce there are a number of factors that affect people's long term happiness: possibility of remarrying, quality of time spent to kids, amount of income lost due to childcare and amount of income paid to ex-spouse, and so on.

We can assume overall these tend to impact men and women differently, with for example women tending to get more access to kids but losing income as they spend time on childcare, and men tending to pay more to their ex-wives and losing time with the kids.

You argue that women gain more from divorce than men overall as women are the ones who file for divorce in the majority of cases.

Let's accept for the sake of argument that women do relatively better out of divorces all things considered. The explanation for this could be good post-divorce outcomes for women, which are the factors above such as ease of remarrying or custody. This is what I see as the core of your argument.

An alternative explanation might be that in a bad marriage, women are in a particularly vulnerable position relative to men. In that case even with worse outcomes from divorce for women, it might still make sense for women to file for divorce more often.

I think it would be hard to find convincing evidence either way. But it's plausible the tension may just be apparent and there is another explanation.

> In that case even with worse outcomes from divorce for women, it might still make sense for women to file for divorce more often.

I don't understand. If bad marriages effect women more often then men, then women do better from divorce. The divorce initiation data doesn't tell us who's happier overall (insofar as such interpersonal utility comparisons even make sense), and I didn't make a claim about this. That data point only tell us who expects to benefit from divorce relative to where they are.

I think you're arguing against a position I don't have.

Agreed on the data point likely showing a greater expected benefit relative to where they are.

It wouldn't exactly show that women "recover better" versus men, which was your original wording, but that is not perhaps the most important point - I'm more trying to tease out nuance than argue against you.

One factor confusing the issue is that a number of reasons mentioned in the thread, such as cancer, remarriage, and access to children, are not particularly relevant to your argument.

The original post of this thread said divorce was lose-lose and that men are the biggest losers. My point, perhaps clumsily made, was that it is possible that some men take advantage of a relatively strong position in a bad marriage. So even though they lose from the divorce itself more, the increased initiation from women may partly represent a relative weakness within the marriage leading to women losing more in a bad marriage prior to initiating divorce (and men gambling that they won't divorce due to the costs involved).

That still feels clumsily expressed, but I hope you can understand where I'm coming from. Again it's an attempt to add a little more nuance to the overall analysis here.

Women are happier after divorce. Men are more lonely. Men find new partner sooner, women tend to stay single. Men do better financially after divorce and women worst - despite HN claims of divorce destroying men financially. (I think the last point has to do with who has to pick children from school and be with them day to day).

It seems that marriage as is is not working for women while works for men. Women then tend to end it.

>So I think we can take the fact that most divorces are initiated by women as prima facie evidence that women recover better from divorces.

That's a pretty big assumption, especially considering how irrational many people are when it comes to divorce.

Personally, I've always assumed the discrepancy was caused by women's higher standards and belief that they can get a better man that "treats them right". I wouldn't be at all surprised if that was completely wrong, though.

My use of "prima facie" specifically flagged that I was not assuming the conclusion, only that it's good evidence that shifts the burden of proof.

I do understand that, but I disagree with you that it's good evidence.

> At least among wealthy men, it seems much more common for them to remarry and make a brand new second family while the ex wife is left doing most things for the first set of kids.

Your mistake here is conflating what the 1% do with the rest of the world. Its like looking at the richest people in hte world, deciding that they're all men so there must be a patriarchy and that all men are rich. Nowhere near close to the truth.

> Plus, it’s significantly more common for men to leave their wives when their wives get diagnosed with cancer than vice versa.

Citation definitely needed. At least anecdotally, women seem to be just as capable of leaving a sick spouse as men and in fact are supported by society for doing so more than a man in a similar situation.

Most divorces are initiated by women. Nowadays, there's an unacceptably high likelihood of divorce within 10 years of marriage. Should it occur, there are significant long term legal and economic repercussions.

I simply don't understand why anyone would ever propose marriage in the first place under these circumstances, let alone remarry after experiencing divorce.

All can be true. Reading statistics, on average, men are financially better after divorce women worst.

Men feel more lonely after divorce and women feel happier after divorce.

Men are more likely to find new partner sooner after divorce, women are more likely to stay single for long time.

> Reading statistics, on average, men are financially better after divorce women worst

How is financially better calculated? Things like child support and alimony seem to not be counted for a lot of purposes - like tax - so the woman could be poorer on paper while actually having more money in practice.

Afaik, they are counted in. Also, alimony are not as frequent as legend has it. Nor they last to infinity.

Being primary caregiver, even with child support financially costs quite a lot. Not just in direct expenses, but also in job opportunities and in terms of what jobs you can have, how you can progress on the ladder.

> men are financially better after divorce women worst.

Does that take into account how much work both are putting in towards earning? Or it's just considering the net numbers? Women may be worse financially looking at just the numbers, however, may still be ahead when their efforts into earning are taken in account. Or when the damages they did are properly taken into account for determining what the position of justice should be.

Are wealthy men the majority of divorced men? You seem to be assuming as much.

Not only this but the cancer related statistics is oddly specific, and chose only because it put men in a bad light. Without numbers (count and percentage) caused by this plus the ventilation by sex it's totally meaningless: the affirmation could be true with only three divorces a year where two men leave and one woman does.

On the reverse, men being taken half of their wealth plus having a pension to pay is the overwhelming majority of cases (even when both are working) in the majority of Western countries. And one never reads any story about a woman becoming homeless or killing herself after a divorce while those stories are numerous on the male side...

I actually am quite sympathetic to challenges facing men, and agree that many don’t seem to care. For example, the utter lack of sympathy for male victims of marital infidelity is mind blowing to me. Women tend to be supported when their husband cheats on them, and men tend to be blamed and viewed as responsible when their wife cheats. I was simply pointing out observations counter to the assertion that men categorically have it worse in divorce, and did not come to a conclusion in either direction. There is too much gender based vitriol in general in these situations. The truth is there are sociopathic, selfish, narcissistic, etc people of both genders and ultimately that callous quality is the salient one in the cases I’ve seen, not gender.

Agree, I am astonished to see the double standard when women cheat vs men : https://youtu.be/qOTe0_Z0vlc If Will Smith was trying to justify cheating on his wife to feel "happy" he would have been cancelled by Hollywood.

Fathers are granted custody only 18.3% of the timey.

Mothers are awarded child support nearly 2 times as often as fathers are

Fathers are awarded nearly 10% less, on average, in child support

Fathers receive less of the awarded child support than mothers

More than 25% of fathers live apart from their children

Women lie in court all the time and lawyers will tell you that in Civil Court there is nothing you can do. These psychos will file dozens of "motions" then immediately drop them in an endless barrage of pointless litigation just to harass husbands into submission.

An entire industry exists just to bleed families dry by getting women to claim abuse (mental abuse is enough) to get the kids, 1/2 the man's stuff and a steady income. The entire "civil court" legal system is broken in the US. It is what Trump specialized in, civil court cases just to fu*k with people and bully them into getting what he wanted.

Unfortunately, there is absolutely no risk of jail time if a women makes false abuse allegation (either abuse towards her or towards the kids). On the other hand it is a common practice advised by unscrupulous lawyers to get rid of the dad and get full custody by getting a temporary restraining order (it is called the "silver bullet").

A recent story where it happened to a dad, who eventually got killed by the father in law : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_z0AfxT2bE No coverage or sympathy from either the media or the politics.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com