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Comment by the_snooze | Hacker News Reader

I hate tech like this. It ostensibly offers some minor convenience for the end-user, but it's really just a big data grab for whatever company implemented it.

A few years ago, I went to a local Shake Shack and found they replaced their cashiers with kiosks. But placing an order requires me to give them my phone number, supposedly so they can text me when my order was ready. This should have been a very simple transaction: I give them money, and they give me burger. That's it. No need to get tech BS involved in things.

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Years ago, I was at a huge electronics store in NYC. I wanted to buy something small, maybe 30 bucks worth. The cashier won’t bill unless I gave him my phone number. I asked him why he needs my number, he said “in case you return the item”. I told him he needs the receipt, not phone number, while returning items. He didn’t budge. I didn’t want to cause a scene, so I left without purchasing.

It is not just collecting the information, it is also treating customers like idiots and with total contempt. I never set foot in that store again.

There should be a oath (like doctors) for software professionals. I don’t think it will practically change anything, but at least it will create a tiny bit of awareness. People who code shit like this parking app should really ask themselves if it is worth it

Imo, name and shame.

To be fair to the cashier, they were probably given no choice in the matter. One of those "I'm sorry, the system won't let me proceed without this info."

"Required form fields" are one of those great power/great responsibility things.

It makes me wonder, when I draw a line in the sand with a clerk, how often they just enter junk data into the system so they can get on with their shift.

Many years ago I worked as a cashier (at Trader Joes no less) and occasionally had to ask customers for this sort of information. I had zero problem just punching in fake data if the customer didn't want to provide it, and sometimes I just went ahead without asking, if the customer was clearly busy with a crazy kid/pet/whatever.

Some cashiers were diligent about the data collection but many, probably most, had a similar approach to mine.

Poisoning data collection is one of the many small positive actions a front-line employee can make without too much risk to their livelihood.

What kind of data? I’ve had stores ask for telephone and said no but that’s about it.

I am not mad at the cashier at all. Poor kid was probably paid the bare minimum and had nothing to do with any policy. That is why I didn’t argue with him (plus there were customers behind me, I didn’t want to hold the line). I asked him once, and left immediately after.

Retail workers are already in a shitty job, no point in making it worse

Next time you wind up in a situation like this, just lie about your number.

My number is always 212-867-5309. And it works great for returns.

Comically, it seems many others use this as I frequently find loyalty points already there.

I’d like to find the club of likeminded folks.

Sadly more places are requiring validation.

Is the number arbitrary or a reason you chose it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/867-5309/Jenny

Below links to the song. It is arbitrary I suppose as it could be any number that the songwriter worked into the lyrics.

It’s also funny when telemarketers from other countries aren’t familiar and accept it as a real number.

You’re missing the point, I think. Lying won’t help, as very few people would do it. Most people would just give their number - mostly because they don’t realize it is shit practice to collect numbers, some because they don’t want confrontation.

By politely pointing out the absurdity, we can maybe raise a tiny bit of awareness. I am sure at least a handful of people behind me in the line noticed.

“You need a number? Ok, +44 908 …” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premium-rate_telephone_number

I hear you though. I failed to receive a flight ticket because the airline accepted but could not use an address with a + before the @; and when I tried to use a website to prove my identity to get a local SIM after moving county, customer service claimed to only support Windows and Android and wouldn’t help me when I connected via a Mac and my phone was from Apple; and the local public transport app didn’t let me buy tickets when it was installed on an iPad, only on a phone; and a few days ago I got an invoice with “click here to pay” text, except the invoice is an image and there is no hyperlink.

Using a premium‐rate phone number doesn’t help anything though. Like the parent mentioned, it’s not like the retailer ever actually calls the number. The problem is that advertisers use the number to correlate one person’s activity across multiple retailers and services.

Well done standing your ground. Some retailers will try the same with postal code/zip.. that's shameless marketing collection to show which regions are performing with fliers. You should always be able to say "No" (and many cashiers just accept this, but of course it's framed like you must to continue), if they push you `H0H 0H0` (those are zeros) is a valid Canadian postal code for a fellow who won't be visiting the policy creators.

I like to believe that those who spam this postal code end up on the naughty list

Cosmo Kramer: They're trying to screw with your head.

Jerry: Now why would a junior high school want to screw with my head?

Cosmo Kramer: Why does Radio Shack ask for your phone number when you buy batteries? I don't know.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgfaYKoQxzQ

I remember when they asked for your address as well. But, at every one I ever set foot in, they also took "no" for an answer.

Same thing happened to me at Currys in the UK. Argued with the dude for half an hour and he finally gave in.

And they wonder why Amazon is dominating retail. Definitely heard that food and parking are different.

When I am faced with this sort of nonsense, and if I really need to make the purchase, I just make up whatever data they're asking for.

The minute tech gets involved it's also another thing to go wrong..

Personal anecdote time: Recently went to a car park that had to pay by phone and no phone signal (in the UK if it's relevant).

This was obviously a common problem, so they provided an open WiFi network limited to just the parking website.

Unfortunately, I had to create an account to be able to pay to park, and the account creation was gated by a Google captcha that.. wouldn't load as it was blocked.

So no way to pay to park, and a crowd of confused tourists all trying to work out how the hell to park without getting a fine.

Fun times

Parking in the UK was a nightmare for me. I don’t remember the specifics, but either a 1 or an I is a valid character for a license plate, and the other isn’t valid. The app used standard iPhone fonts such that the one that will never exist in the UK looked exactly like the WRONG character on my phone.

I got a parking ticket from the first parking lot we parked in on that trip, within just a few moments of walking out of the lot.

I had screenshots and everything that showed that I paid, and the language the company used on its tickets and also appeals process was completely foreign to me, an American.

Total nightmare but after many rounds of back and forth I was able to successfully appeal, and then get them to explain to me in more plain language that it actually was successful.

This reminds me of all the QR code menus that rely on everyone having a data connection. International tourists also eat in restaurants.

I always put a fake number into the Shake Shack kiosk. It hasn't been a problem, since the people sacking the burgers shout out my equally fake name to pick up my order.

If Shake Shack is really texting me that my order us ready, it's going to a prison pay phone a dozen states away.

Poison the data!

I have yet to encounter a loyalty card program where local area code + Jenny's number (867-5309) wasn't registered.

Also usually gets you plenty of Safeway Rewards @ Chevron.

This +10 (if I could). Putting in something clever (and thus probably rare, and maybe unique to you) can make it far easier for Borg-tronic Analysis, Inc. to connect all the little data dots about you. A bit of data that is common to a large number of people makes a far better poison for their dystopian wishing well.

as someone that had the misfortune of once working for K-Mart, and having management harass us if to few customers gave phone numbers for their rewards account. There were many accounts for jennys number. Also i purchased many pizzas with her rewards account.

If there's a camera on the front, might want to wear a mask too.

If there's a camera on the front, might want to wear a mask too..

It's still 2021. There's no way I'd go into a Shake Shack without one!

Facial recognition might still work with a COVID mask on.

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56517033

For companies doing this, I tend to give them the phone number of their own service desk.

Better to stop doing business, or they’ll never learn.

On a related? note, local area code + 867-5309 seems to work for most store discount cards.

Safeway no longer accepts that number at least in the 503 area code, I found out upon trying as was my custom, a few years ago. The cashier recognized it and laughed with me as she scanned her own card which they keep on hand precisely for these reasons, as I understand it.

Actually, I did have trouble at Safeway with this recently but the cashier kindly gave me a card that scans -- very nice because it has none of my information associated with it.

Related, but when I am forced to read the number instead of just typing it in, I consciously say "Eight Six Seven Five Three Zero Nine" instead of "Oh"!

When they ask for email address, I give them postmaster@hashbang.com

“Do you need my phone number to checkout” or “I forgot my phone” always works tbh. Just have to be a little disagreeable.

What about a simple "I don't have a mobile?" A lot of folks forget there are still people who don't have one - and many who don't want one. If the store won't transact with someone simply because they don't feel like handing out that bit of information (or simply because they don't have the information to provide), they're not really a store worth transacting with.

Don’t feel like you need to lie. Just say, “no”.

I didn't suggest to lie, I said, what if the customer actually doesn't have a mobile? Have we reached the point now where if someone claims not to have one, they're lying?

I should clarify i wasn't referring to myself - I have a mobile (deGoogled, at least). But there do exist people who don't want or need a mobile device.

sure, but you may still have a landline. but... the whole "we need this for returns" line is just weird.

You replied to “I forgot my phone” and I thought you were helping that argument.

No, wasn’t a lying argument. If you go out without your phone, fair answer to give.

exactly, just say no, firmly. most folks (retail or otherwise) would rather avoid confrontation so will opt for the workaround (that retailers institute as a backup since they typically would rather not lose business entirely).

but also, have no qualms about providing false information. you have no legal obligation in most cases to provide accurate info, and companies often employ deception in trying to elicit oversharing private info anyway.

Or in my case "I just have my German phone number" (when I'm in Canada).

This reminds me so much of how Radio Shack used to operate. I'd go there to buy some capacitors or solder, and the cashier would demand my full name, address, phone number every single time. I just said, nope, here's the cash, give me the receipt.

One of my buddy's actually had them refuse to sell him some parts. He had given them his address and all (not a confrontational person) and they denied the sale. I bought the stuff for him. I used cash and did not identify myself. I get the feeling Radio Shack had some other stuff going on.

For stores with return policies, there is value in knowing who may be abusing them and/or causing them to lose money.

When I worked at radio shack we would send catalogues, later fliers.

We would ask during a return and require it. When buying anything with cash it was optional. The sales staff had to maintain an 80% ratio per day.

He never returned anything and was a pretty frequent buyer (he was big into a lot of hobbies that he could build electronics and he built stuff for work). They rung him up and then the store employee said they couldn't sell him these items. He started ordering from catalogs after that. Didn't matter much I guess as Radio Shack stopped selling components not long after.

They would sell that information to skip tracers. CVS was big into this as well.

These private parking things are similar, there is a network of near real-time alerting about vehicle location for repo men.

Having to install a special app just to park is not even convenient, it's a pain in the ass.

What I mostly do not like about these new techs: dependence.

Before you needed simply cash to pay for parking.

Now you need a phone with a non-empty battery, mobile internet connection and a digital mean of payment provided by a third party that takes its share.

experienced this too recently. i asked to order with a cashier and they gladly obliged.

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