Polish PM urges ‘concrete steps’ by NATO to address border crisis | Hacker News Reader

Polish PM urges ‘concrete steps’ by NATO to address border crisis

theguardian.com

25 pointsbelter23 comments

The call for NATO to act just further embarrasses the EU. How can the EU not handle something basic like protecting its own border? How can they allow an EU airplane to be taken out of the sky to kidnap an EU resident? How can they even consider a natural gas pipeline with Russia when Russia invaded Ukraine less than 10 years ago and is amassing nearly 100000 troops on the border today?

Bureaucracies have a hard time fighting against asymmetrical warfare.

> How can they even consider a natural gas pipeline with Russia

Germany closed all their nuclear stations. They need lots of energy for heating and industries. Russia can take whole Ukraine if it wants and Germany will still buy Russian gas.

I don't understand nations being anti-nuclear. Also, why would you take down nuclear without having a good substitute?

>Also, why would you take down nuclear without having a good substitute?

Germany has coal, it help to preserve workplaces and one has not todo/think much....climate is not so important there.

Because this forces future German governments to keep buying Russian gas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Schr%C3%B6der#Relation...

>In his first term, Schröder's government decided to phase out nuclear power

>As Chancellor, Gerhard Schröder was a strong advocate of the Nord Stream pipeline project, which now supplies Russian gas directly to Germany

>In 2016, Schröder switched to become manager of Nord Stream 2, an expansion of the original pipeline in which Gazprom is sole shareholder.[92]

>In 2017, Russia nominated Schröder to also serve as an independent director of the board of its biggest oil producer Rosneft.

That is some blatant corruption.

No, that's how germany and the eu works, work in the eu as privacy protection officer after that change to google.

https://www.businessinsider.com/google-job-hires-raise-conce...

Hmm... See: 1. Chernobyl 2. Fukushima

Unless we speak molten salt i dont understand people whp would build new 'classical' reactors I dont

1. Emphasize all the negatives.

2. Minimize or outright deny all the positives.

3. Rinse and repeat for 40 years or so.

Not that different from anti-vax.

Fossil fuel energy being among the most powerful and corrupt industries on the planet, in the pocket of countless thousands of politicians and bureaucrats doesn't give any hints?

They've caused countries to go to war, killed millions, and are still mostly exempt from paying for any externalities from their product that have been known for a century. Killing nuclear is a walk in the park.

>The call for NATO to act just further embarrasses the EU

Haha exactly what i was thinking, maybe ask china too if they can help ;)

>How can they even consider a natural gas pipeline with Russia invading Ukraine less than 10 years ago and amassing nearly 100000 troops on the border today?

But that's where you are wrong, russia cannot accept that the nato places it's rockets into Ukraine, the US=NATO pushed russia into those steps.

And then those NeoNazis groups supported by europe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party)

And much more...like the buy'd snipers. The US and Europe play dirty games with russia and the ukraine.

This is an asylum/immigration crisis and EU is a group of countries whose views on asylum and immigration politics are very divergent.

It is likely that the current model of (ab)using asylum laws to facilitate mass migration into the richest EU countries is unsustainable, but any viable reform of the status quo will still hit against the Scylla and Charybda of "we do not want any more third-worlders of unclear identity here" (basically the Polish or Danish position) vs. "it is our duty to seriously process and examine every single asylum application even if we cannot return rejected applicants to their countries of origin" (the German position).

If these people were legitimate asylum seekers they could have applied for asylum at every border crossing to Poland.

It seems these people realize they have zero chance of obtaining asylum in EU and are getting frustrated that after paying 7-10 thousand dollars per person to traffickers had been stuck at the border…

Formally these people are arriving to Minsk on tourist visas. A bit of survival tourism in East European forrest isn’t something they have been expecting? Complain to the tourist office…

> This is an asylum/immigration crisis and EU is a group of countries whose views on asylum and immigration politics are very divergent.

They're economic migrants, same as the other 10 million who've illegally entered the EU in the past decade. Stop conflating them with asylum seekers.

Conflation is a Marxist technique: in the UK, one official deliberately conflates economic migrants with surgeons, "Some of them might be surgeons. Why wouldn't we want surgeons? What's wrong with you?", despite less than 0.01% being surgeons.

Must have missed conflation in Capital. Is it like inflation?

Note the enemy here is a dozen of families forced to sleep rough in a forest, being shoved from one side of the border to the other. This isn't a military crisis, but a humanitarian one that exists due to both countries having an anti-refugee moral panic and staunchly refusing to let in any asylum seekers.

People in Poland are divided on whether Poland should help these people (there are both protests against the inhumane treatment, as well as calls to defend the country from "invaders"). The ruling party doubled down on a "strong borders" rhetoric, and ordered the military to block any attempts to aid the refugees.

Is there evidence that these people are truly seeking asylum and not opportunists? From the portrayal in the media, it seems as if the Belarusian government was advertising taking flights to Minsk as a way of immigrating to Europe.

Separate from that, these people are in a tight spot now. Apparently the Belarusian government is beating them if they try to retreat from the Polish border.

What's wrong with "opportunists"? Even if they came for an American^W Polish Dream, even if they came to exploit loopholes in the system, just letting them in would cost the country less than deploying the military. The number of people here is tiny compared to the country's population, and the number of immigrants it lets in every year through other channels.

Your argument is essentially asks why have laws at all. The Polish government has made it clear they don’t want immigrants in this fashion by passing immigration laws. Sometimes enforcing the law costs money.

If you talk about this at any length and don't mention proxy warfare, your view of the situation might be superficial.

Post-2015 Europe is just not the same. Walkable neighborhoods, open public services, just do not work properly when you introduce millions of dangerous men from culturally incompatible regions.

It should be clear from these border events that migrants are used as geopolitical pawns to weaken Europe. We need to see mass deportation, as well as stricter minimum requirements to gain citizenship (eg. minimum EUR100k in income tax paid, fluency in the language), if Europe can ever hope to recover.

I think selective immigration is “eugenics” with extra steps.

it’s the logic thing to do but also completely unethical.

I hope the future sees the practice how we see picture of kids working in coal mines.

immigration visas need to be issued randomly.

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