How to sell: tips from a marketing guy who can actually sell something | Hacker News Reader

How to sell: tips from a marketing guy who can actually sell something

bostinnovation.com

137 pointssliggity41 comments

My problem with howtos on sales/marketing is that they fall into two categories:

1. The author is not a good salesperson, so you should ignore the advice.

2. The author is a very good salesperson, and will sell you on the article.

The problem with 2 is that the author's interests are not the same as yours - they want pageviews, while you want effective advice. So my advice when reading a particularly pithy sales or marketing HOWTO is to ignore the content and concentrate on how it's written.

So by my own logic, ignore this comment if you found it persuasive.

That's exactly my conclusion. I stopped buying marketing/sales/copywriting help material when I realised the best material was the one I was reading already for free - the one which convinced me to buy the material in the first place! Sure, I still need to deconstruct how to make such material, but imitating and testing works.

This was a witty comment (the end made me chuckle)...but flippant.

Ultimately it is not very helpful: it does not address the content of the original article, which is excellent.

It is easy to fall into the trap of being so skeptical of sales writing as to automatically discount it. We see a lot of that here on HN which I find to be an unfortunate knee-jerk reaction.

Sales is a skill. During a layover I bought a book on the 'business' shelf of a UK airport. The book had tons of the warning signs of #2 above. I was extremely skeptical. It was called 'Selling to Win' by Richard Denny. It had the cheesiest cover you can imagine (think citrus green with pink).

But the things I learned in that book allowed me to get to 'ramen profitability' in my field. I was ahead of the crowd 6 months later, largely thanks to the techniques in that book.

Had I dismissed the book, I'd still be making fun of the cover and complaining about not having enough work.

This may not be true for every consumer, but for me, the salesperson who is most effective is the one who is willing to educate me about what I'm buying. I'm almost always willing to shell out a few extra bucks to buy from someone who has a teaching spirit.

For that reason, I'm not naturally as cynical of salespeople's writing. It's usually pretty easy to tell if what they've written is at least attempting to educate.

Another rule that is assumed, but not mentioned is this is the following:

Rule 0: If you don't believe in your product or respect the people you're selling to, the deal is already broken.

I'm sure when the author was selling steak knives, he believed that those knives were the absolute best available, and that he was legitimately providing a huge value to the people he spoke with. That formula should be true in any sales or marketing engagement you're involved with; you need to believe that your startup's service solves a large problem to the customer, and that your startup is absolutely the best player in the market to assist them in meeting their needs.

Sales/Marketing isn't about conning people out money, it's about helping people via a product.

This is precisely why large companies selling big-ticket products/services to the enterprise seem to have clueless hacks as salespeople.

IMHO, this is a big reason why technical people struggle in sales: they're likely to be more honest/open about the limitations of the product when asked.

The less the saleschap knows about the product/service in question, the more he can confidently claim. Also, it helps when the sales function is separated out from delivery and support, as they can ensure that the next pitch is not coloured by those sausage factories.

I'm inclined to agree, but there's maybe more to that: another reason why many technical people struggle with sales/marketing is that they simply assume that sales is all about tricking people into buying stuff they don't need / stuff that doesn't work. So once they find themselves in a salesy situation or role, they might feel like overcorrecting in the negative direction, just to not be salesy.

Being salesy is what bad, incompetent salesmen do.

Technical people struggle in sales most likely because technical training is not sales training. Sales is a learned and highly skilled occupation.

Read a good book on sales, like one by Zig Ziglar. Effective sales is not at all about lying to customers. The best sales professionals rely on repeat sales, and you don't get repeat sales by lying to your customers.

I have a technical degree, and it includes zero sales training. Even born salesmen need practice and training.

BTW, when Boeing sells airplanes it sends out its top engineers. Engineers with sales training make darn good salesmen for highly technical products, and there's no way in hail you're going to sell an airplane to an airline by lying to them.

I really don't think it's simply a choice between honest or dishonest. Sales is telling a story. It's your opportunity to craft a narrative complete with good guys, bad guys, a quest to solve a specific problem, and a happy ending of how successful your prospect will be if they buy your product. You can highlight the weaknesses of your own product and actually improve your case by then explaining why these aren't actually weaknesses at all. These aren't the droids you're looking for... Further, a product is more than the sum of its features, just like your career is more than the sum of your resume and your life is more than the sum of your bank account or how many trophies you have on your wall. Sell the big picture.

Also, if your product really does suck, get a job working for someone who has a better product. If no one has a better product, build it or do the best you can with what you've got. There's quite a bit of that in software where the best product simply doesn't exist yet, so sell the current best despite its shortcomings. Great salespeople have to be sold on the product they're selling before they're willing to sell it to someone else--it's easier for everyone that way.

Sales is all about understanding people quickly and helping them get to where they want to go, I'm not sure why technical people often have a problem with this but I suspect it has to do with an underlying lack of confidence when it comes to people and asking for things; it's not that they're inherently more honest than people who work in sales, I've heard that one plenty and I find "honesty" (as they see it) is usually just an excuse for their timidity, something to hide behind. And your average salesperson probably is a hack, but so is your average engineer.

The best salespeople I worked with at $LAST_VENDOR_JOB could have given a flying fuck about the product they were selling. None of them understood it. Belief in your product is simply not a requirement for successful sales. It may be for a startup, but not in the general case.

Sales is a skill. I could try to break it down in a neat little bulleted list, but I'm not a good salesperson and so wouldn't be credible.

The problem I have found is that many supposedly-good sales people seem to set customer expectations too high. After the fact, there is a lot of effort expended on easing customer concerns.

I'm not a good salesperson either, as I will easily give away my concerns about a product I'm not completely sure of, but I've worked for people that are great at closing deals for shoddy products.

At one time, I worked with the sales guys from Akamai-during-the-ipo. It was very interesting to see them operate (and how specifically they wanted our salesforce account configured).

True, single sales can be won and lost by skill alone, but without some passion for either the product, your employer, or your customer, you may end up as a Glengarry Glen Ross style frustrated burnout :)

> I could try to break it down in a neat little bulleted list,

Well, can you give it a whirl, anyways? I'd love to hear how it came off to you/ what made them different from other vendors who approached you to make them stand out/ etc. I (and other HN'ers) would really appreciate it, I'm sure.

Good stuff. I'd add that point 2 (Establish competence) and 3 (confirm pain) should ideally be connected in an educational fashion: start your meeting with data about your potential client's market (and pain), not your product or your company. E. g.: if you're selling collaboration software, provide some (reliable + interesting) statistics on how much time and money is wasted in unproductive meetings etc.

Also, and that's a general rule: ask, don't tell. Get them talking about their problem. If you really have a good solution for it, the most natural progression of such a conversation will lead to your product and why they want to buy it automagically.

I've had "sales" calls where I simply asked prospective clients whether they had a minute to tell me a little more about the problems they're currently facing (which are of course connected to our solution). Instead of pitching them on your product, the client's problem monologue often naturally flows to a point where they bring up the idea of using your solution to solve their problem.

I love this comment:

"Demonstrate you’re not a dick. To do this, it helps not to be a dick."

Me too. Nailed me. And is probably the biggest part of sales IMHO.

It'd be very helpful to see these principles in application. An example of a sales cycle with 5-point breakdown would go a really long way. To be able to see all the nitty-gritty details, exact wording, timing and what not. Not to repeat it blindly later, but to get a practical feel for these hints.

One quibble:

> Establish competence – The first question on the table in every meeting is “Why should I listen to you?” Bring some content to the dance; a slide or better yet a story that shows you to be someone worthy of attention in your prospect’s busy schedule.

In my experience, trying to "establish competence" doesn't work. Either your accomplishments speak for themselves, your reputation precedes you, or someone vouches for you. You can't foist a "story" on someone who doesn't know you.

Yes you can definitely establish whatever image you'd like to project, with practice.

It's all about perception and stereotypes. From the clothes you wear, the tone you speak, the way you shake hands, and the amount of smile you give, etc etc.

I'm by no means good at this, but here are a few things I'm learning to become a good projector with some success:

to look confident, remember confidence ~= competence - strong hand-shake, with a warm and dry hand. I have slow blood flow, so sometimes I get a hot coffee to warm them up before meeting someone. - open arms, do not cross fingers - show disagreement with good reasons occasionally, but do not argue. - throw a witty joke/comment here and there - do not smile all the time (this is because I was raised to smile a lot, which seems to be the case for many Asians) - pay attention when listening, but do not fear asking questions or admit I do not understand particular thing - pay attention when speaking, adjust speed/explanation based on reaction

to look funny in casual environments, just one particular type of funny out of the many - a joke/exaggeration must be thrown into the mix within first 5 minutes, to establish the expectation of being funny - step out of social boundaries as soon as I can, like a funny comment on racism/sexism/stereotype - never laugh at my own jokes, and try to keep a straight face - not be afraid of offending others, actually make fun of them whenever possible, and try to never get offended myself - do not apologize

Your comment was better than the original post.

"It's all about perception and stereotypes. From the clothes you wear, the tone you speak, the way you shake hands, and the amount of smile you give, etc etc."

I totally agree with this - some stereotypes are GREAT for your image. For example, being viewed as a "Smart asian" gives you credibility when talking about science/math, while a "Smooth talker" has more ethos when talking about consumer relations.

So what can we get from this article if we're selling software to normal people over the internet?

No meetings, client is not on LinkedIn, no breakfast/lunch/dinner, etc.

In that case, marketing is probably higher priority.

Very good, informative article.

I do have one issue with it though, this line:

1. Establish warmth – Demonstrate you’re not a dick. To do this, it helps not to be a dick.

If you're a naturally outgoing person with a warm personality, then yes, it's not more complicated than that. But a lot of tech people struggle with this..

How DO I "establish warmth" if I'm naturally inwards-looking person that likes listening more than talking?

Have a firm handshake, smile and try and see things from the other person's point of view.

Ask yourself: do you tend to like the bigmouths better than someone who's genuinely trying to have a conversation with you? Does lots of talking really help to establish warmth? It doesn't. The best sales people are awesome listeners - and ask the right questions. If you feel uncomfortable to do the talking, ask your prospective customers about the problems they're facing (related to your solution). Unsurprisingly, most people are quite happy to talk about their problems. Note that this is how most friendships start, too.

>How DO I "establish warmth" if I'm naturally inwards-looking person that likes listening more than talking?

The best salespeople always listen much more than they talk, so you are fine there. Of course, you actually have to listen, rather than tune out. If you really listen well, that is a major advantage in sales.

>The best salespeople always listen much more than they talk //

Hmm, I don't know. I think such salespeople may be the ones favoured by the crowd here. Though not exclusively, others have mentioned those that attempt to educate you as being better (IMO that means they're talking more, answering your questions).

I'm not prepared to accept thought that being more likeable translates to better sales figures in general without some hard evidence.

Do companies turn down the best financial offer because the salesperson is a pillock? Can't see it happening much unfortunately.

Remember people's names, remember the names of their children and their spouses. Ask how they are doing, in general most people care far more about that then whatever their company does.

Smile more often (you don't have to be grinning ear to ear, just any facial expression that has a modicum of happiness).

Touch base with people whenever possible.

If you're a naturally inwards looking person that likes listening more than talking you've got half your problems solved, all you need to do is start asking questions and be sincerely interested in what they have to say. The only thing people love more than talking about themselves is having someone to listen to it.

If you like listening more than talking then you're halfway there.

Showing warmth and that you're not a dick means listening to other people and responding to what they say (In my opinion). That may be an oversimplification.

I went for lunch with my sister a few months ago, she was having trouble making friends and being warm and open to new people. When the waitress came over I chatted with her a little bit and joked around because she nearly tripped as she approached our table. When the waitress left my sister asked me if I knew her - I didn't. She thought I had because of how we were talking to each other. I gave her a tip that she said completely changed how she approaches new people - she was already trying to just listen to what other people say and asking questions when it was her turn to talk but the thing that made it click for her was that I suggested to her that she should try pretending that they're already her friend. That tip made talking to new people easier for her. If you talk to people like they're already your friend then it's easier to be yourself, genuine, and warm and be interested in who they are.

It might work for you - your milage may vary.

My personal rule zero is to smile a lot. No matter who it is that you're speaking to, a smile make you instantly more likeable and trustworthy. It's tough to get used to (especially if you're the kind of person, like me, who frowns as their natural expression). I think of it like this though: no matter who it is that I'm speaking to, they're taking time out of their lives to listen. A smile shows appreciation of that. (Not to mention that smiling a lot helps you live longer [1].)

[1] http://www.ted.com/talks/ron_gutman_the_hidden_power_of_smil...

I recall reading an article here on HN a few weeks ago that said marketing is not selling, it is lead gen. Selling is an entirely different stage in the process. Makes me a bit wary to take tips from this guy if he doesn't actually know the difference.

On the web, esp. with SaaS and other self service business models, marketing and sales are much more intertwined than they originally used to be. If your price point does not allow for a salesforce, your website essentially becomes your #1 sales rep. And while not 100% comparable, a lot of the best practices of classical selling apply very well on creating a high-converting sales funnel online.

"Marketing" in the pure academic sense is the entire collection of activities that create value, give that value to customers, and extract some of that value in return. By this definition, sales is a subset of marketing.

Upvoted.

This definition always caused me to roll my eyes when I heard it from profs, "Everything from R&D to operations falls under marketing" but it actually proves valuable; limiting your thinking about marketing to promotion and sales means you leave a lot of opportunities unexamined.

It is a particularly broad definition. One could argue that 'anything in business can fall under marketing in some way'.

A personal definition I like to use is 'marketing is any activity designed to increase the top-line sales revenue number'. If you research and launch a new product, that's marketing. If you cold call, that's marketing. If you write inventory control software, that's not marketing. If the software reduces delivery time, that's marketing (since you could argue that improved delivery time translates to increased customer satisfaction, and ultimately increased sales).

I like this post very much. This strategy can be applied anywhere for your success. The core value or target here is "people". You get people's heart, you get everything!

Selling is about helping someone find a solution to a problem by finding the best product that fixes it (whether it's your own or someone else's).

as a naturally gifted salesman i can confirm this article is spot on

p.s. i am a naturally gifted programmer too. the two are not mutually exclusive - pun intended =)

being an "asshole" helps

you just have to be a COMPASSIONATE "asshole"

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