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Comment by jacquesm | Hacker News Reader

This is a pedal assist e-bike. There are people that cheat and that install throttles so they can move without pedaling but that's a great way to get your vehicle confiscated.

A typical ride has me providing 40 to 60% of the Joules and the remainder comes out of the battery. If there is a very heavy wind up (not rare here) that might drop to 30/70 and if I have a tailwind it is the reverse. The bike has a nice stats display where it tracks all this stuff. Maximum assist is 350W (10A current out of a nominally 36V battery), at the wheel considerably less than that, this is only used when starting up from a complete stop. The rest of the time you're at a small fraction of that.

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> There are people that cheat and that install throttles so they can move without pedaling but that's a great way to get your vehicle confiscated.

Note that this varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. In the US e-bikes with throttles are legally classified as Class 2 electric bicycles and are generally legal for use in bicycle infrastructure as long as they don't exceed 20 MPH.

FYI, the US classes are as follows: (1) 20 MPH (32 km/h) max, pedal-assist; (2) 20 MPH max, throttle; (3) 28 MPH (45 km/h) max, pedal-assist.

I'm not in the US.

I know, I'm just clarifying for readers who are.

Ah ok! Maybe I should add that bit to the article to make sure that people have that context.

Everyone is an American on the Internet (unless stated otherwise).

I don't think you need to defend yourself so vigorously in this thread. But I would say that what you're seeing is distinctly the American experience with e-bikes and bike enforcement.

Americans are generally clueless about e-bike laws. This includes police and e-bike owners. American e-bikes are marketed as having throttles, being to bypass traffic at high speeds using the bike lanes and bike paths, and not needing licensing/registration. As an analog cyclist, my experience is that e-bikers jump the lines at red lights, sometimes shoving you out of the way. With the bulk of my cargo bike, they sometimes instead jump around me on the sidewalk instead, which is kind of funny-terrifying to watch with their heavy bikes. On bike paths, e-bikes stand out for their high speed in crowds and you wonder if the "assist" from the motor is a binary on/off.

If all bikes were given more room and more consideration from drivers, this may not even be a real problem as each type would be able to spread out. But the infrastructure is pretty poor and police enforcement against drivers is even worse. So all the "alt transportation" people need to cram together in whatever meager space was won at the last road reconstruction meeting. E-bikes look great for converting drivers to bikes so no one wants to talk about banning them. But they also end up keeping their car driver mentality of me-first and objectifying everything else on the road around them.

I added the 'I'm not in the US' bit because I probably should have added my location to the post.

Agreed, poor infrastructure serves as an amplifier of irritation between classes of vehicles that should not even be sharing the same pathways except to occasionally cross. The USA is very much car centric, I'm not even sure if I would ride a bike there. Where I live we have pretty good infra but even here e-bikes and s-pedelecs have upset the order a bit. But I'm sure it will work out in the long term.

Americans are generally clueless about bike laws.

There, fixed that for you.

But they also end up keeping their car driver mentality of me-first and objectifying everything else on the road around them.

This is a great point, and I've observed the same behavior among analog cyclists as well (I've been a regular bike commuter for over 20 years in a city without much cycling infrastructure). Many cycling advocates don't realize that simply getting people on bikes isn't the end goal. It really needs to be about changing the way people move through space among their fellow citizens.

I don't think it's helpful for us cyclists to be turning against each other. We ought to be unified in advocating for better bike infrastructure. (Personally, I use an electric bike because I'm still recovering from a broken ankle and don't want to strain it.)

NY only allows pedal assist. In NYC they will crack down on electric motorcycles using the paths but ignore the delivery guys.

This appears to be incorrect. In NYC e-bikes with a throttle are permitted, and subject to the same limitations as pedal-assist bikes, as long as they don't exceed 20 mph (~32 km/h). [0].

[0] https://www1.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/ebikes-more-engl...

My wife just bought an ebike (from RadPower) that has both pedal assist and a throttle that doesn't require pedaling. You can also adjust the amount of pedal assist so you can "feather pedal".

Who's going to confiscate this bike????

It depends where you are. Most EU countries forbid throttles, but they're ok in the US as long as your under 1000W motor output (Federal laws), but local laws can make this stricter.

I've built several e-bikes, for fun, and like the author of this article, I've got a long range one, but only with about half of his battery capacity, which is enough for me.

Depends on your country, really. Throttle ebikes are legal in the USA so long as they don't go faster than 20MPH on throttle alone.

And really speed is what matters here. Who cares if it's pedal-assist or throttle so long as you aren't going markedly faster than normal people without any motor at all? There's no safety concern.

At a certain point, you've added enough extra mass to the vehicle in terms of batteries, motor, beefed up brakes and frame, etc that you need to start asking questions about how much kinetic energy it's carrying and what happens to it all in case of a crash.

Silly comparison, but we wouldn't let a car drive on the sidewalk even if it had a special module that limited it to 5km/h.

The weight of the bike + rider is still well below what some riders weigh all by themselves. Compared to a scooter it's a featherweight, compared to a regular e-bike it's about a 5 Kg premium.

> Silly comparison, but we wouldn't let a car drive on the sidewalk even if it had a special module that limited it to 5km/h.

We do in the UK - it's perfectly normal for cars (including police cars) to mount and drive along the pavement, before being left there

Same in China. Doesn’t matter if they are allowed to park there or not.

Same in practically every European country I’ve been to.

And it’s not like it doesn’t happen in the US either. Most residential streets don’t have sidewalks in the first place so technically parking in front of a house without a curb or lane is the exact equivalent. Just because it isn’t explicitly marked as a sidewalk doesn’t mean it isn’t treated as one when it’s the only option.

There has been some talk of changing the law on that, although I can’t see how that would work in many streets.

There’s an order of magnitude between a 2 ton vehicle and a 250 pound vehicle+rider.

Cars also have huge blind spots and if a bike rider gets in an accident, it’s usually very painful for them too, so their incentives to avoid accidents are quite high.

Okay, then take away the blind spots and some of the mass and ask the same question— why don't we allow motorcycles to drive on the sidewalk or multiuse paths assuming they pinky swear to always go really slowly?

Seriously? 1. Motorbikes weigh at least 10 times as much as bicycles, and can't be picked up any moved around by the rider 2. Motorbikes are much wider than bicycles 3. Motorbikes can accelerate much faster than bicycles 4. Motorbikes emit noise and exhaust fumes 5. Motorbikes have a much larger turning radius than bicycles 6. Motorbikes are capable of keeping up with cars and therefore have no need to be on bike lanes.

Probably a lot more reasons as well.

The starting point for this discussion was:

"Who cares if it's pedal-assist or throttle so long as you aren't going markedly faster than normal people without any motor at all?"

And my point is that there are a lot of devices out there that are legally an ebike, and therefore have access to bike infrastructure provided the observe a 20MPH speed limit, but that are in reality much heavier and less maneuverable than what most people consider a "bicycle".

Obviously this has been lost on the downvoters, but just as some examples, if I were out with my kids cycling on a multi-use path, I would not be thrilled to have "bikes" like these passing me at 20MPH:

https://rugged.bike/

https://ebikegeneration.com/collections/rambo

https://www.addmotor.com/products/m-5500

Then you also have:

- bakfietsen (cargo bikes)

- delivery bikes

- e-scooters (25 kph)

- e-scooters (45 kph)

- regular scooters

- mopeds

And all of those you can encounter on a bike path. I cycle daily with my kids on the way to school in traffic and I spent a lot of time over the years educating them to be safe. This is pretty hard work because kids really have the attention span of mosquitos and tend to be very easily distracted.

The scooters are the biggest danger, followed by cars, cars, cars and cars. E-bikes and other bike like devices have never over the course of many 1000's of rides to school and back been a problem. This is NL, so that may well be different where you live, here bikes are pretty well respected in traffic as long as you don't mix it up with the cars.

I have a fairly large cargo e-bike; it weighs 75lbs. I weigh 200lbs. I'm sure you'd feel a difference being hit by me that rather than me on my 18lb road bike, but I go faster on my road bike except when climbing.

I'd love an Electric Hot-Tub Bakfiets, but the batteries don't last long, they aren't very maneuverable, and they spill a lot around corners.

Those things are amazing. Here are a few photos I took of a dude in Amsterdam riding a bakfiets carrying an outdoor urinal.

https://imgur.com/a/nq2rnBW

Yes. Maybe a stopping-distance requirement. Many "e-bikes" are under-braked and under-tired for their speed and mass.

Big-tire "e-bikes" with disk brakes are really light motorcycles. Forget the pedals and admit it.

I completely agree— electric fat bikes are totally a fun time, but I think they really land in an odd place when it comes to where they belong on the road. They're likely too bulky and heavy to be in the bike lane, but shouldn't really be in the car lane given their speed limit. And the speed limit shouldn't really be dropped without imposing licensing, and once you're there, there's no point— it's just an electric motorcycle.

Yeah, there's an argument to be made somewhere here about banning obese people from running. :P

Here in NL that e-bike would not be legal. It's quite possible that where you live that such a bike is legal. Do check up on it though to make sure!

Same in Belgium, and they are pretty strict about that.

And France:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-8106261/Fran...

> Who's going to confiscate this bike????

Most european cops if they catch you: some countries may treat s-pedelecs as bikes, but in most it's a moped, you need a driving license, insurance, a license plate, and all the legal equipment of a moped (e.g. lights, rear view mirror), and commonly type approval (which is going to be very, very expensive). Also can't use cycle paths.

Over the last few years many (but probably not all) member countries have passed laws to treat devices not exceeding 25km/h to bikes, but that's only for hard-limited devices, not "I swear I don't go faster than 25", the latter? mopeds.

On the day that daylight saving time changes so it's dark an hour early, the Dutch police sneak out all around the city, hide behind bushes, and jump out to surprise unsuspecting bike riders who don't have their lights on yet, and write them traffic tickets.

This has to be a joke right?

Dutch people don't joke; they insult you and then laugh

No, it actually happened to me, but it may have been a mailbox the cop was hiding behind.

> it's a moped, you need a driving license, insurance, a license plate, and all the legal equipment of a moped (e.g. lights, rear view mirror), and commonly type approval (which is going to be very, very expensive).

The amount of bureaucracy in Europe for completely mundane things is completely unbelievable.

Getting a Driver's license in France, for example, is an uphill battle against a very hostile administration. I can completely see why some tried to dodge some of these absurd regulations by innovating in the e-bike space.

Having a tiny bike barely able to break the 25mph limit be considered a moped just because it has a throttle as well as pedal assist is completely ridiculous.

> Having a tiny bike barely able to break the 25mph limit be considered a moped just because it has a throttle as well as pedal assist is completely ridiculous.

Yeah, what is the world coming to when a moped is considered a moped? Insanity. Cats and dogs living together.

Looking at those power numbers, I can't help but wonder how much you'd gain by doing this sort of modification on a bike that is more efficient and/or aerodynamic even without the motor attached.

A touring bike frame with 700c wheels and a more stretched out position would likely allow you to travel at the same speed for lower total power output - and make your battery go further (or not require such a large battery).

There are velomobiles here, and also e-bike versions of those that go wicked fast. They also ride on the bike paths. I think they're quite dangerous because they are so low that you are riding below the height of a car hood (or a mirror for that matter).

Here is a picture of one:

http://dutchbikes.nl/artwork2/kv4/passing.jpg

and a video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAcy7EVRpXc

I think it's insane this is allowed on the streets without a license or anything. I'm afraid of riding my regular bike if there's no bike lanes, let alone something like this in the middle of all the cars. Insane.

Agreed, they are very dangerous. But there very few of them (because people realize they are dangerous).

But why does anyone actually care if you technically need to be pedaling in order for the electric motor to engage? Surely an electric bicycle could still go arbitrarily fast while arbitrarily requiring the pedals to turn. Isn't this whole thing just a silly loophole in what is considered a "bicycle"? What if instead, bicycle lanes just had rules regarding top speed, weight, form factor, etc.

> This is a pedal assist e-bike. There are people that cheat and that install throttles so they can move without pedaling but that's a great way to get your vehicle confiscated.

I really need to understand what's the difference with a throttle and a pedal assist whose curve is basically so that it gives all power at a ridiculously low pedaling rate...

I object to the pejorative "cheat" as to suggest that non pedal assist is morally worse than pedalling.

Edit to say nice job on the project, this is awesome. Here in Texas, I would love to see a lot of people using these in the bike lane.

Cheats as in 'breaking the law'.

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