Comment by alsoathrowaway | Hacker News Reader

Comment by alsoathrowaway | Hacker News Reader

I think you're misrepresenting a few things, so I'll take a stab at it:

1. Senior software engineers at Google in Mountain View make over $200k all told.

2. Senior software engineer is in the middle of the Google ladder. The bulk of engineers at Google are senior level, so it's not special. The very best engineers make more.

3. You are vastly overstating the salary and difficulty of other fields.

3a. Doctor - You have to go through medical school and residency. Medical school incurs a ton of debt and residency pays shit. The average salary for a doctor in Silicon Valley is $200k.

3b. Investment banking and management consulting - first of all, in these fields, a few people make a ton of money, but most don't make nearly as much. Both of these fields are known for their horrendous hours. I'd rather work 40 hours at $200k than 80 hours at $500k.

4. There are also big winners in the programmer world. People who went to good startups early (Facebook, Google).

5. Many programmers _enjoy_ their work. How many can say the same about investment banking, lawyering, or management consulting?

2. It's not actually "the bulk" of engineers - I heard Senior SWE + above is something like the 30% of engineers. However, the age range is off; typically Senior SWEs at Google are about 26-32, depending on what their past career was. Someone who's 35 and of Google caliber (i.e. same intelligence as a doctor, lawyer, or management consultant) would usually be at least Staff and have some management responsibilities.

4. This is pretty key. Most of the top engineers I know at Google aren't paid $150K, they're paid millions via acquisition, stock grants, or insane counter-offer.

>>(i.e. same intelligence as a doctor, lawyer, or management consultant)

I keep reading this again and again. A doctor, lawyer, or management is not necessarily smarter than a programmer. They have to work longer before they can start practicing their profession but that doesn't make them smarter.

There are plenty of programmers too dumb to get a job at Google. I think the post you were replying to was merely saying that they also wouldn't have been able to pass the LSAT or MCAT.

1-3). Citation needed. Especially for Google salaries. I personally know a number of Google engineers, one of whom has been in software since 1994, and they've told me what they make.

3a) - 3b). True, but I was comparing the top bankers/consultants to the top programmers. Remember that Google is the very top, #1 software company to work for - it's only fair to compare Google engineers to, say, mid-level bankers at Goldman Sachs. If you want to compare average people, you'd have to look at, say, programmers at Wells Fargo or something.

4). That's essentially luck. If it isn't luck, please explain why the median VC loses money. Either a). average programmers must be better at picking winners than average VCs, who (if not as smart) have decades of experience and spend hundreds of hours on it rather than ten minutes deciding between job offers, or b). an average programmer shouldn't exercise their startup stock options, because they'll expect to lose money on net.

5). Definitely true, and it's why I'm a programmer myself. But it doesn't address my points.

What % of programmers work at Google? Yes, "people who went to good startups early" profited immensely (not just Google, but Microsoft, others, etc.)

What % of programmers work at "software" companies? Here, in this space, that realm receives bulk of focus, and even there, most of these positions are of the one-off variety (or very small teams) compared to corporate IT where not so long ago, hundreds, even thousands of programmers worked in departments now staffed (in what I would estimate to be the majority of firms) by an amalgamation of offshore programmers and imported non-immigrant visa workers. Yes, these jobs pay more than lettuce picking, but the mechanism still serves as downward throttle on wages and bill rates.

There is colossal range in low-end to high-end in programmer pay. And jobs at the high end are not as plentiful as those on the low end. And developers in Silicon Valley (or big metro hubs) eclipse the rest of the country where it's not unfathomable for programmers to make less than 50K.

I will agree with the contention that the free agency nature of career field is driving out those who do it because they "_enjoy_ their work" -- in non-software corporate positions, I do not believe that was the norm until the 21st century.

+1 for the 5th point. I had to read a few contracts and I was utterly convinced that I wasn't paying my lawyer enough as he had to read this horrible stuff every day.

This is a very weak argument. I am pretty sure your lawyer says the same thing about the code you write.

Everything is boring when you don't understand its meaning. A good lawyer can easily figure out what is important in a legal document, and make smart decisions based on it.

What would your lawyer say if he read a few programs and contemplated the fact that you have to read that stuff every day?

I don't think legal language is as unpleasant to lawyers as it is to people without legal training and experience.

I think reason #5 is a big one. Most of my friends in banking, law, etc know they are trading happiness for money, and accept that.

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