The Framework Laptop Is Great for a Linux-Friendly, Upgradeable/Modular Laptop | Hacker News Reader

The Framework Laptop Is Great for a Linux-Friendly, Upgradeable/Modular Laptop

phoronix.com

285 pointscommoner198 comments

Note that if you’re building a framework with the intent of using Linux avoid the “vpro” variant of the Intel wireless adapter:

https://community.frame.work/t/using-the-ax210-with-linux-on...

Last I checked with every recommended config tweak you still lose ~3% battery per hour of suspend, which really adds up and is extremely annoying.

We’ve been asking framework to include a notice referencing this issue when configuring but as of the last time I checked they haven’t.

We added a note to the FAQ on the configurator page, but we’ll think through how we can do a more prominent warning.

Thanks for the reply! Certainly a step in the right direction but given the significance of the issue (and unknown response time from Intel) a warning should display whenever the vpro hardware is selected in the configurator. Because of this issue I have to carefully plan when to suspend my laptop -or- shut it down every time.

At this point I’d also be happy to buy a new non-vpro replacement from you but I don’t seem to be able to.

You used to be able to disable vPro features using on-board MEBx jumpers but I bet that has changed in the last 5 or so revisions of that feature.

It used to be that you simply had an S3/4/5-Off setting that powered down the CSME and any vPro NICs. Some implementations did leave WoL on for Ethernet links.

Im in the same boat. Love the product but the battery in sleep mode is pretty bad :(

Is this definitely even the problem?

I got the non-vPro version and my battery drains just as fast.

Random things like my trackpad settings also don't persist when waking from sleep.

Honestly I hate this machine so far and deeply regret spending more than $1,600 on it. Linux support is surprisingly poor.

From https://frame.work/blog/linux-on-the-framework-laptop :

“ There has been immense interest in this configuration, with it outselling pre-configured systems with Windows 10 by a wide margin.”

There is a market. And it is currently under-served.

Machines ordered without Windows won't necessarily end up running Linux. Many of them could end up running pirated Windows.

Hackintoshing is also getting easier (save for amazing battery life) with OpenCore, perhaps a small subset end up doing that.

It will get easier right up until x86 MacOS is no longer updated and then will immediately become a thing of the past.

Monterey supports the 2013 Mac Pro and 2014 Mac Mini, so if we can expect only 8 years of actual OS support, we'll probably see 8 more years of OS updates for stuff like the 2020 Intel iMac and Intel Macbook Air & Pro. That's a long while before this becomes a possibility.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212551

As a particularly relevant counter example, the last PowerPC Macs were sold until August 2006. Mac OS X Leopard came out a year later in October 2007 and received its last patch (10.5.8) in August 2009. That's a lot less than 8 years.

This is why when the first M1 Macs were announced I immediately sold my 16" i9 MacBook Pro and bought an M1 Air for much less than I sold the Intel machine for.

Yeah while Leopard remained supported with some security updates, you could forget about all the OS update goodness which was still significant back then.

I had a PowerBook and it was disappointing how quickly it aged because of this.

Microsoft actually offers Windows 10 for free, with some cosmetic restrictions until you pay for the license.

Could you please provide information we're I can get that free of Windows?

I swapped motherboards recently. Despite /specifically/ getting a Microsoft account, thinking that it would link my account to my licenses and allow for seamless transfer, it seems I need to call into microsoft for them to re-activate my install. So first off, fuck you Microsoft.

To the question: I have a watermark in the corner of my screen saying I need to activate, and I am unable to change my desktop background and some other things. Besides that, the OS is functioning normally.

I haven't used Windows in over a decade now, and this behaviour boggles my mind... Imagine losing access to parts of your OS because you switched hardware around.

It's odd because a decade ago I would've probably been fine with it, too.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10I...

I don't know whats up exactly but I actually tried installing this last week and it didn't let me. Said I could only install without a product key on a system that already has a windows install.

you can download it for free from microsoft, install it and use it no problem. like he said it has limitations until you pay, but you can use it forever without paying

The "cosmetic restrictions" are the "Activate Windows" watermark and the inability to change any setting under Personalization in Settings.

The best part being if you don't allow it to get online during the initial setup you can go change all the personalization settings. It will only lock you out once you get online and it verifies its not activated. I can deal with just having that watermark when I only boot into win10 for a few specific programs.

It's also pretty straightforward to emulate a KMS server and activate Windows that way. Technically against the EULA, I'm sure, but Microsoft doesn't seem very motivated to do anything about it (certainly not for individual users).

Restrictions:

https://windowsreport.com/windows-10-used-without-activation...

Yeah, these days Windows is like Fortnite: free with cosmetic IAP.

This is also why "Windows is a service" according to those Windows Update nag screens, but if Windows is a service and it's free, are you the customer... or the product?

That is a very good point. Especially when the cost of Windows is priced out explicitly starting at $139.

I think the one thing we have ( or should have ) learned. Is the paradox of computing. Bill Gate said all hardware will be free. Because the cost is driven down so quickly. And it will be software that rules the world. That was late 90s and early 00s. And it make sense. Because software development is getting more expensive.

It turns out no consumer is willing to paid for software. The vast majority of consumer market wants software to be free. And they are only paying for the product ( both software and hardware ). Most developers were surprised at their iOS copies sold compared to their macOS software. Where iOS had 10x the market size, but only sold less than half of what they did on macOS. That is a 20x difference.

There is no need to pirate windows anymore, there are tons of entirely legit windows 10 pro licenses for sale at <3€.

Those are the exact pirated copies I was referring to. Or do you really believe that a copy that costs 3 euro can be legit?

It’s ‘possible’ maybe unlikely at 3€

However there is a license recycling market that buy up unused or reassignable licenses from say software shops that have gone under and still have 100 visual studio licenses etc

Yes, i want to go legit by paying pirates for, checks notes, buying grey market license keys that could be disabled at any moment

Microsoft never bothers, and at 3 euro the risk you have that "activate windows" might have a low chance of popping up again is well worth it. Just make sure its not a volume license key and your pretty much good to go.

Is it really pirating when all you get is a key and a legal inactivated copy of windows from MSFT's servers says it's legit?

I bought an OEM pro key for $15-20, and it works great.

Research it a bit more and if you call MSFT support, they go into a loop about how if you typed it in and windows says it's good, it's a legit key from their perspective.

These aren't pirates, they buy the licenses from defunct business in the same way you would buy an office chair.

Checks notes to be arogant And it says here they're entitled to do so.

I've been researching this and the sellers of this assert they are selling licenses that are left over and entirely legitimate. It's a secondary market, not unlike used cars or anything else that is more tangible. I think there might be precedent for this to be legal even if Microsoft wouldn't like it be so.

It's illegal. Software is licensed, not sold; and software licenses are usually nontransferable. This was a point of contention in Vernor v. Autodesk wherein the 9th Circuit found for Autodesk.

If Microsoft really cares about this it is welcome to price Windows Pro competitively.

(Microsoft only really cares about licensing for business customers, enforced through audits anyway.)

In the United States, you are right. In the EU, that is wrong. See for example: [0]

The reason you can get entirely legal windows licenses for so cheap is that there are many institutional buyers who get the licenses they actually use separately but still purchase a lot of computers that have OEM licenses bundled [1], and now they all unload those licenses at whatever price the market will bear. Last year, that was ~6€, this year it's down to ~3€.

The fact that the prices is now so low is probably a part of why it keeps going down. A lot of people in this thread express suprise that a legit key could be so cheap so they obviously must be illegal, which drives away sales.

[0] https://www.computerworld.com/article/2505356/eu-court-rules...

[1] And do note that tying the OEM license to hardware is also entirely illegal inside the EU.

I bought Pro at around $45 and activated through Microsofts own activation service so while $3 sounds unreasonably low, unless Microsoft has started activating unlicensed keys it is possible to get actual legal keys at a fraction of the list price.

These are likely licenses given to Microsoft Partners which are only to be used for developing/testing software. They activate identically to regular keys and there is no indication once activated that that's the only licensed purpose of that key.

They send you a license key that you can use with a legit Windows installer, that you get on Microsoft’s website. You can even link all that to your Microsoft’s account.

If that’s pirated software, Microsoft doesn’t try to detect it very much.

That reminds of the days that I was incorporated, and really wanted to be completely legit. I bought Office 95 Pro for half price, with CD's in a jewel case, complete with holograms on the labels, and considered myself a careful shopper. Then the company I worked for entered into a Select Agreement, and we had a meeting with an official Microsoft representative. I asked him why licenses on the Select schedule were so much more expensive than my copy of Office, and he told me that my copy was bogus. I told him about the holograms and everything! Nope. I paid $200 for very, very good, completely fraudulent and illegal fakes.

After that, I went to Linux on the desktop, and never gave Microsoft another dime, until my wife demanded Word on her Mac a couple years ago, and I now begrudgingly have an Office365 account.

I bought office 2000 as a student for a tenner :) No holograms but it was official.

I've never paid for it since. Office apps aren't really important in my personal life at all, the open ones do just fine if I ever need them for something. And if I need the real office I just use my work laptop :P

You can get a fully working Windows key for well under $50.

I know, I had to get one for my kids.

So maybe some are just buying a legal copy at a price that Framework aren't allowed tonsell at.

That said, if one isn't stuck in a very Microsoft-centric organization or isn't playing certain Windows-only games, which developer honestly want Windows now that even power management (suspend/resume) seems to work better under Linux?

Many laptops come with two. One on either side of the space key.

My wife is out and kids upstairs so I'm reading HN alone in the living room and actually laughed out loud (after first thinking you had replied to the wrong comment).

Sorry, I still don't get the joke! Can you enlighten me, please?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_key

easily confused with the conversation's "Windows key" aka "software license".

'Windows key'

'Key' being alternately the licence key, or found on the keyboard.

Doubt it. First of all, computers with Windows aren't any more expensive than the same model with no OS or Linux.

The Framework is niche hardware and honestly, it's doubtful non-developers would ever hear about it. Odds are it's something Linux users are seeking out.

First of all, computers with Windows aren't any more expensive than the same model with no OS or Linux.

That's not true in this case. Framework charge you the full $140 for Windows Home and $200 if you want Windows Pro.

>First of all, computers with Windows aren't any more expensive than the same model with no OS or Linux.

That's not what Framework's website is telling me. It looks like getting it with Windows costs up to $199 more

Strange considering other OEMs bundle it for the same cost as Linux.

Framework's loss or they just don't consider it important?

Or OEMs rip you off by including the Windows price in the no-OS cost.

I would guess it's a combination of Framework not having the same deal the big OEMs are getting, OEM grift, and based on the price, Framework appears to be selling retail Windows licenses rather than OEM licenses.

Or Microsoft puts subtle, legally deniable pressure on the OEMs.

I've never managed to buy the laptop i want without a windows license. Often it's been a PITA to take it off, too, to add insult to extra cost.

In the 90s they threw their hands up and said it was nothing to do with them that this kept on happening and it was all a hare brained conspiracy. Until that memo came out and proved otherwise, of course.

I can't imagine framework getting the decent OEM bulk windows license deals being as avowedly pro linux as they are.

That's fair. I'm no MS fan for the record. Just assumed Framework would have access to some OEM deal on Windows OSes.

My next laptop is definitely going to be something without Windows (Linux user for the last ~15 or so years).

I think if you buy in high enough volume you can buy devices from OEMs without a Windows license. I bought my ThinkPad that way and it cost about $100 less than the version with a Windows license.

I only got this deal over a project that procures hardware for universities and students. They offer a limited amount of models with a price that is about 20 - 30 % lower than retail. I guess big companies that order in the same volume get similar deals.

It reads mostly like a marketing decision.

i bought a system76 and removed linux and put windows 10 on it so i don't think it impossible to think people do this stuff

One of the (maybe the?) largest tech reviewer on YouTube quite publicly bought one on the spot after reviewing and then invested in the company.

Recently I could still save money on Lenovo, Dell, and even some HP business machines by ordering the No OS (freedos) or Linux options. I haven't checked in two years because I haven't needed a new machine. You just don't see it as often in the consumer space when microsoft is subsidizing the cost of windows to remain the ever present option.

It'd be interesting to see how much of the interest in the no-OS option is due to Linux vs people choosing to buy a Windows key cheaper elsewhere.

I'd like to see that data too. I'd be very surprised if that windows scenario is anything other than noise level.

Though, for completeness, I'd replace Linux with *nix - I'd guess there'll be some BSD users in there too.

Yes FreeBSD user here. Would love to have a laptop with verified-to-work hardware. Preinstallaton is not needed nor really wanted :)

Would love to see this market set the bar higher than "Linux-friendly"!

I believe that the Framework DIY Edition is bringing more new users to the Linux desktop than anything in recent memory. People all over the Framework forum are talking about trying Linux for the first time on their new DIY Edition machines.

When buyers need to opt-in to Windows for $139, it seems to stop the inertia. This is true even in my own case, even though I've used Linux on and off at home and at work for the past 15 years. My previous laptop came with Windows 10, and I just used it like that (with Linux VMs in VirtualBox as needed) for four years. Now I'm getting caught up and keeping up with Linux desktop distro news, excited about it all, and trying Manjaro as my daily OS.

>I believe that the Framework DIY Edition is bringing more new users to the Linux desktop than anything in recent memory.

Framework DIY orderer here. I plan on putting Linux on it because I wanted to try something other than Windows. I'm excited, but admit that I'm a bit scared as this is my first time diving into Linux.

Would be nice if it would mention which proprietary software is necessary.

I'm typing this on my Framework now and I have to say it really is a special device. The prevailing culture of treating technology as disposable is something I personally don't vibe with - I always keep all of my tech and have collected machines over the years that most people would probably consider obsolete and uninteresting (there's an Amiga 1000 and iMac G3 currently in my field of view). Having a fully open machine that I can customize, upgrade and repair for the foreseeable future is just so cool and makes me feel like this is my personal computer in the truest sense of the word!

A few takeaways from using it for around a month now:

1. This is the most "premium" feeling non-Apple laptop I've ever owned. Most of the laptops I've ever daily driven are Macs or Thinkpads so take that for what it's worth, but I think most people will be happy with the fit and finish of this device.

2. The swappable port system is actually a lot more useful than I expected. I initially thought it would be something I set up once and didn't bother with again for a while but there are a lot of random moments where it comes in handy. I'm kind of a messy, hyper person that periodically reorganizes my desk and I like to move between different workspaces when I need a different setting to feel creative. Being able to move my HDMI or USB-C ports around for better cable management is so nice and yeah I could use an external hub but I've always found those to be annoying on-the-go and just "feels bad man". Also I don't use Micro SD cards as much as other people but there are times when I do and being able to swap that in is really kewl.

3. Linux support is amazing but there are still a few hiccups. I use Arch Linux and everything works perfectly except for one minor inconvenience with Bluetooth: on a soft restart, the Bluetooth is disabled and I have to do a hard restart to restore it (can be mitigated by a kernel downgrade and should be fixed in a future update). It's not a deal breaker for me as I usually just close my laptop and put it to sleep, but just know that it's like running Linux on most other computers - you're going to have a much better time if you're fluent in tinkering and configuring your OS.

4. The 3:2 display is awesome for programming and content creation, and I don't know why more devices don't adopt it. My only criticism is that it's not a touch screen but with how modular this laptop is it's only a matter of time before that becomes an option.

Thank you for posting this! I run linux on two XPS 15s and I love them but after manually repairing one and not being able to easily find parts for it it left me a little salty. My next laptop will most definitely be a framework one!

Your second point about the swappable ports finally made me realize it's not a gimmick. I don't know why but I think just because it's different I was a little apprehensive about it. The thought of being able to reconfigure it to avoid a dongle or hub is great.

The display is 3:2, not 4:3.

Oops, nice catch. Fixed.

> 4. The 3:2 display is awesome for programming and content creation, and I don't know why more devices don't adopt it. My only criticism is that it's not a touch screen but with how modular this laptop is it's only a matter of time before that becomes an option.

Really strongly agree with both points here as a new owner of a framework laptop. My old personal laptop had a 16:9 (not 16:10) screen and wow the difference is so stark in terms of usability for anything that benefits from vertical orientation. Suddenly I wish you could still get 4:3 desktop monitors again. I kinda filled that gap with rotatable 16x10 monitors but honestly I just kind of miss 4:3.

The 16x9 laptop is still nice for watching videos though.

How does it compare when opening two windows side by side? Is there still enough horizontal screen real estate for things like a browser and a code editor to still be able to see enough content on both?

Yes I found my old ThinkPad T42 recently and fired it up and got sucked in looking through my old files for a couple of hours. Its screen felt so useful and big.. 4:3 is great.

It only had a 1024x768 screen but apps really made way better use of screen real-estate back then. Much less unnecessary whitespace.

For number 3, the bluetooth issue, I also encountered this on NixOS but it seems to have been fixed with kernel 5.15.0 I upgraded to this week. But maybe I've just been lucky :/

> 4. The 3:2 display is awesome for programming and content creation, and I don't know why more devices don't adopt it.

The display on the FrameWork laptop needs to be scaled fractionally (about ~1.6x) which is a deal breaker for me. It would've been far better if it had resolution of 3000x2000 or 3200x1800, which would've given it a PPI of ~270 and integer scaling at 2x.

Linux support for fractional scaling with multiple monitors is unstable, even on Wayland. Applications like Firefox and Qt apps behave abnormally (pop menu positions are incorrect, they often flicker). There's also a subtle loss of quality in fonts and images.

https://scribe.rip/elementaryos/what-is-hidpi-and-why-does-i...

Totally agree. All these reviews are conveniently ignoring this. Some of them I’ve seen even just left it at 2x scaling and did the whole video with a giant cartoonish UI that had no actual usable space.

For Linux users this display needs to be either 1500x1000 or 3000x2000.

> Some of them I’ve seen even just left it at 2x scaling and did the whole video with a giant cartoonish UI that had no actual usable space.

Either that or they keep it at 1x scaling and just scale the fonts instead which is a pretty degraded and compromising experience if you use GUI apps and not just the terminal.

But this is conveniently omitted when singing praises about Framework. The laptop has a broken display that'll give you nothing but headache if you enable fractional scaling and if you disable it, you're compromising after spending potentially thousands of dollars.

> Either that or they keep it at 1x scaling and just scale the fonts instead which is a pretty degraded and compromising experience if you use GUI apps and not just the terminal.

Is it? Because this is exactly what I do on mine (w/ GNOME + PaperWM) and it's fantastic having so much space. I don't even scale the fonts, either.

> Is it? Because this is exactly what I do on mine (w/ GNOME + PaperWM) and it's fantastic having so much space. I don't even scale the fonts, either.

Good for you I guess. I, for one, can't read text at size 6 or 8 and I know most people can't either. The only case where this might make sense is if you're using your display to watch movies and play games and have minimal or no involvement with text.

Even if it does work for you, I think it should obvious that most people can't use their laptops/desktops like this and anyone who sings praises for a laptop like Framework should mention the flaws as well.

Maybe I'm weird, but the 2x scaling on my Framework looks fine to me; not cartoonish. Xfce requires a few manual settings to get it right (which did frustrate me for the first week), while GNOME and Cinnamon appear to handle it well by default.

2x scaling on a display that needs 1.5x scaling would look cartoonish. Every GUI element — titlebars, headers, icons, menus etc would be bigger than they should be.

You could scale down the fonts to make the text bearable and not look like it was written for advertisement banners but then you've basically got a weird and broken setup that would be impossible to use with an external monitor or any other display.

Kinda hoping this motivates some movement towards stabilizing fractional scaling on Linux. It feels like this has worked in macOS and Windows for ages.

To be honest, I can’t say that this has been an issue for me on the Framework with Wayland and GNOME. Or at least I haven’t noticed it. My external monitor is 3840x2160, not HiDPI so maybe the issue is with multiple HiDPI displays of varying pixel density? I’m also using 1x scaling on both displays which perhaps simplifies things.

> I’m also using 1x scaling on both displays which perhaps simplifies things.

I'm sorry if I sound snarky but this right here is the problem. Using a display at 1x scaling which needs at least ~1.5x scaling for text and images to be legible isn't really feasible so I expect you've scaled just the font size instead?

If yes, you've basically chosen to compromise because all GUI apps will look out of place and odd with buttons and icons still at 1x. If you've neither scaled your display nor your font size, your eyes are exceptionally good to be able to read tiny fonts but most people don't have such eyes.

I've been told by people that they don't use GUI apps and just use the terminal but if that's the case, they should point out this caveat about their workflow being unique when singing praises about Framework laptop so that others don't get misleaded into a buying a laptop with a display that's basically broken.

> 2. The swappable port system is actually a lot more useful than I expected.

I'll second this. I was momentarily annoyed earlier in the week when I reorganized my desk, and found that the USB C port was on the "wrong" side for my cable-management. It took me a moment to realize that this was (for once) a solvable problem.

I've been running Linux on mine for about a month now and love it. It's easily my favorite laptop I've ever owned.

I'll be trying the pi-top touch display when my Framework arrives. It might take a little effort, but I'm optimistic.

Also typing this on my Framework. I love it!

Having a USB-C port on each side of the laptop has been _so nice_. I have an M1 Macbook Pro for work and it only has USB-C ports on one side of the laptop. I'm not sure who designed that thing, but it's awful (they finally fixed this on the newest models).

I'm running Windows on it, using WSL2 for any development, and it's been great. I'll second that the display is amazing (also wish it was touch but... maybe someday)

I've been using mine (min-spec 1135 DIY) for ~4 days on Sway+Manjaro; the hardware feels really good and for all the considerations made towards repairability, it feels like a no-compromises premium piece of hardware. It was nice to be able to take hardware that I have laying around (i.e. SSD and RAM) and put it to use.

The biggest disappointment so far is directly related to the processor offering:

- It feels like it warms up pretty quickly doing small things and starts spinning up the fan

- s2 ("deep") sleep works out-of-the-box but drains battery way faster than I'd like

Some of this kind of stuff may be related to the modularity of the laptop (e.g. bigger power draw of the less power-efficient non-soldered components), but I think a lot of the blame lies with Intel's offerings & hopefully things take a turn in this space for the better. I'd love to see e.g. an M1-style ARM offering from someone that runs linux and is offered in a package like Framework's.

The trackpad is probably pretty good for a 'windows laptop', but just doesn't feel as good as the one on even my 2015 Macbook (and I don't think it fundamentally can be as good with a physical 'pivot-based' click approach compared to the simulated haptic approach on the Mac). It really does feel like a compromise on usability when you see how good the basics can be on e.g. the new Macs. I don't think it's Framework's fault and the ecosystem here just needs to improve.

Based on what I've seen so far, I think this really is a game-changer for people who want a first-class linux-compatible laptop with less compromises (both 'ethically' and from a hardware perspective), and I'm really looking forward to how Framework continues to improve the offering and innovate in this space.

I'm giving it a try as a daily driver for a few weeks. I need a linux laptop for some of my hobbies and the Framework still feels like the best choice for me (including some of the Thinkpads I was looking at... hard pass on the 16:9 offerings, the 3:2 on the Framework is really nice), but I think it'll be hard to swap off of the Mac for the day-to-day usability "basics".

That battery drain might be caused by that vPro issue someone mentioned above.

I ordered the module without vPro, so I don't believe that should be the case.

I've heard a ~3% drain rate per hour and that about lines up with what I'm seeing... i.e. if I'm working on one of my hobby projects and want to shelve things with all the same context I can't just "close the laptop" and come back to things a few days later without juggling the laptop on a charger at some point.

Can't wait for them to offer AMD systems. It's a preference of mine to not use Intel products.

They also tend to use a bit less power.

Actually you can at least disable Intel ME, but you can do nothing with AMD PSP.

Thank you for the reply, however, I cannot disable my personal values and preferences.

Could you tell us what are they based on? My ones are on security and control.

Without knowing or caring about ME or PSP, perhaps they mean the behavior of AMD the company vs. Intel the company. I am an AMD man as often as possible for this reason.

> perhaps they mean the behavior of AMD the company vs. Intel the company

In short: "There is a computer inside your computer. And it can computer while you computer"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine

And you don't control this embedded computer in any way and it had access to everything.

I mean, Intel ME would actually be useful if we could log on to it and install (and remove!) software or even change out its OS.

One example for me is Linux support in the GPU wars. Nvidia has been very hostile to Linux compared to AMD, so philosophically (for now), I’ll prefer AMD for my platform despite Nvidia offering a better GPU. Not as big a deal with Intel, but I like encouraging what I see as good behavior. AMD market share isn’t anywhere near Intel either, so I also like putting my money on the “underdog” to keep the competition going.

But Intel has better driver support than either for its integrated graphics.

A lot of people hate on Intel but they are actually friendly to open source in some important ways too. As with many companies their size it's definitely a mixed bag.

They also are the only American fab left. I am glad AMD/TSMC is competitive but there's something to be said for supporting Intel to prevent a TSMC monopoly.

Not OP, but I prefer AMD nowadays because they're the underdog and we could use more competition. Of late they also started releasing great products, making it even easier for me to prefer them. If they ever outgrow Intel by a good margin, I'll switch back to Intel. It's not like the choice of the CPU matters all that much. I just want them to work harder for my money.

I love the idea of modular, upgradable, and especially linux-friendly.

But, because modular, I'd like a Framework Surface.

Having the screen, keyboard, touchpad, computer, etc all integrated into a single device, seems like far too many factors and constraints to be able to reach perfection. Better to split at least the keyboard and pointing device, so you can pick and choose.

That would be very interesting. Maybe I could finally fulfill my dream of a portable system that can raise the display to eye level while keeping the keyboard at an ergonomic level.

I‘m surprised no one else seems to want this. Imagine if you could clip your screen onto the headrest in front of you. Wouldn‘t that be a huge improvement?

    Imagine if you could clip your screen onto the headrest in front of you

That's just a VR headset!

Not really.

Yes, it's worse than a VR headset!

This sounds a lot promising, why haven't I thought this? Portable builtin monitor arm must be painful HW engineering but I can see myself very easily enjoying this feature.

For a few years now I’ve wished for this kind of thing. After I sketched out a couple of concepts, the approach that looked most viable was to build a folding keyboard case where the lid opens up into a tablet stand. This hugely reduces the scope of the design problem, because PCB mounting holes for mechanical 60% keyboards are more or less standardized, and tablets are obviously commodities. Even so, this is easier said than done. I didn’t (and still don’t) have enough experience designing things with hinges; I don’t know how to make things thin, light, easy to build, yet still strong enough to throw around; and I could never decide what to do about mice.

I‘ve been thinking about it more from a "what I wish one of the 20 OEMs building crazy windows convertibles should build" than a " what can I DIY“ angle. Here‘s what I would want:

Computer is maybe the size of new 16" MBP (large but reasonable). All the components in the base, the screen is thin and light. Instead of a flimsy ribbon cable the screen is connected with a removable flat cable that has an auto roll-up mechanism like a tape measure. Screen is held to the base with some "simple“ protruding hinges that it just can slot in and out of without crazy tech (because the hinges are a not super small). The screen has a magnetic back and there would be a couple of different mounting accessories:

- magnet to VESA, so you can easily plop it into a nice stand on your desk and really utilize it in a multi-monitor setup

- an "external“ raising arm that slides a plate under your base and is secured by it‘s weight (maybe clips in) then raises it up a little and holds it by magnets

- suction cups

- gorilla pod type mount and/or clamps

- … whatever else like tripod and mic stand adapters

This hodge-podge idea is probably not realistic for a commercial product but we can dream. My planned solution is M1 13" macbook air + portable USB-C screen and macgyvering it with a gorilla pod or suction cups. Unfortunately I am kind of married to macOS right now and that doesn‘t have tablet options.

On the same boat with macOs, my dream would be an 13" iPad running macOs, with MBA bottom shell as battery + keyboard + trackpad + speakers + etc. But currently an external monitor (or ipad + sidecar) is the best choice. I'm also trying to work on a stand design for the second monitor, but it's not easy.

I'll do you one better for what I would want - iPhone that could slot into an iPad chassis a la Asus Padfone of old, which in tern docks onto bottom shell that contains keyboard/trackpad. The hardware is more than capable, heat output would be one concern for sure. I wouldn't mind a Mac that is even 70% as fast as the M1

Tried this with a galaxy s10e with magnetic dock attached to the back of a 10.6" 16:10 2560x1600 touchscreen display, and it went well, however software support for a desktop mode (DeX) was still lacking.

I used to do exactly this with the surface pro. I used this portable tablet stand: https://www.octa.com/products/spidermonkey.html

Yeah, that would be awesome. I’d pick a X12 detachable like keyboard for mine.

Me, too. I’ve bought my last laptop. The attachment of the keyboard to the display is an ergonomic disaster. Fortunately, several Surface models work well with Linux; there’s even a special kernel for them.

I really wish I could get my Surface Pro 3 to play nice with Linux. I've even used the custom kernel, but every time, without fail, it seems to heat up until the entire system freezes, at which point I have to shut it down. Maybe it's a hardware issue?

That seems hardware related. I'm currently running a more-or-less out of the box install of PopOS on my Surface Pro 3

Funny that you bring that up, I've heard multiple accounts of Ubuntu-based distributions running without issue on the device. Maybe it's my own damn fault for trying to run Arch on this thing...

EDIT: tried it, and i'm still idling at 50-60c :(

Looks like this is the official site: https://frame.work/ "Framework Laptop starts at $999. DIY Edition configurable from $749." - that's for the base model.

Unfortunately I didn't see the display specifications while configuring the product. That is a major factor when making a decision for me.

And one of the pictures from Larabel (third in first page, https://www.phoronix.net/image.php?id=framework-laptop&image... ) does not seem to show a matte display, though I am not sure...

Edit: confirmed glossy on other reviews.

I asked this question to Nirav, one of the founders in a previous HN thread about the laptop.

He clarified that there is currently no matte option with no plans for display options.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27948272

Perhaps if they realise there is a market that direction can be changed? (One can hope)

Considering that some will simply refuse to work on a glossy display (and I guess such "some" largely overlaps with their intended potential market), and that the whole purpose of the product is modularity, they will have to realize that they currently are losing an important slice of market - they are severely slashing their base.

Yeah it's one reason I like ThinkPads. They do great matte displays, even with touch functionality! I've never seen others do that combo. Not that I really care about touch but it's usually quoted as the reason for glossy displays these days

The display specifications are shown here: https://frame.work/laptop

13.5” 3:2 2256x1504, 100% sRGB color gamut, and >400 nit

It is also IPS.

From NotebookCheck: «13.50 inch 3:2, 2256 x 1504 pixel 201 PPI, BOE CQ NE135FBM-N41, IPS, BOE095F, glossy: yes, 60 Hz»; «Framework uses the exact same ... as found on the Acer Swift 3 SF313. ... wide color coverage and relatively high contrast ratio. Response times are slow».

The issue is: being this "option" (without a clear alternative?) glossy instead of matte, the display also will require being a module as part of the modular framework.

The NotebookCheck review has info about the display. https://www.notebookcheck.net/Framework-Laptop-13-5-Review-I...

The Framework Laptop is literally the first time ever I've seen a laptop and wished I was at the point in my upgrade-cycle to get a new laptop. Right now I have 2-3 more years of use out of my current laptop before I upgrade though.

On the bright side, that means that even cooler second or third gen Frameworks will be available when you do end up upgrading!

I really hope so. The alternative is they could go out of business (even with demand being good, supply-chain logistics is challenging right now)

I'm kind of in the exact opposite boat. I've waited for a while to buy one because this laptop is coming, but I still can't buy it in Europe!

They shared an update on the Europe situation via newsletter:

> "With our supply improving, you may be wondering when you can order a laptop if you're outside of the U.S and Canada. We selected and are bringing up our worldwide warehousing and fulfillment partner, which is one very key part of the equation, but it takes quite a lot more than that to enable a complete experience in each country. Picking Germany as one example, we need German language keyboards, a Type F power cable, in-box paperwork and labeling in German, localization for the Framework website, support documentation, and checkout flow, support for local payment methods, calculation of Euro prices and taxes, accounting support for German income, creation of legally sound Terms of Sale, Privacy, and Warranty policies for Germany, CE certifications, a local Authorized Representative to back up the certifications, determination of HS codes and tariffs, an Importer of Record to be able to deliver duty paid, German-language in-time-zone customer support, reverse logistics and RMA support for returns and repairs, region-specific sourcing of off the shelf memory and storage, trial builds of German laptops prior to production, and back-end ERP infrastructure to tie all of this together. That sounds like a lot, but it's actually a drastically simplified summary. Supply and logistics crunches slowed down parts of it, but we are moving forward on all fronts. We'll open pre-ordering in the next few countries before the end of the year for shipment in early 2022. We'll share the exact month of shipment at the time we open pre-orders."

I'm left handed and track-pads have never agreed with me.

Other people on this site have recommended the MNT Reform to me: https://www.crowdsupply.com/mnt/reform

It seems like a different flavor of an open source laptop that people who want a better keyboard and has the option of a trackball (!!!) instead of the trackpad.

I think the MNT is going to be my next laptop, but the Frame.work is pretty cool.

The mnt is far more open as well, but there's no comparison in the performance department... you'd have to treat the mnt more like a very underpowered, memory-constrained netbook.

My current laptop is a Thinkpad X200t from 10+ years ago. The MNT has a modern GPU and a nice keyboard. I think it's going to work quite well.

Maybe, at least that era of Core 2 Duo thinkpads supported 8G of RAM...

I was in a similar boat until last year when I switched from a modded x61s to an x220 i7 then x230 i7 w/16GB which I'm still using and cost under $300 on ebay. The HD4000 iGPU is at least Vulkan capable.

It's really unfortunate the imx8 SoC didn't have even an 8GB variant. The fact that you can get a raspberry pi with more memory than the Reform is such a bummer.

I've read they're working on a 16gb capable nxp soc. That'd be more useable.

So, I checked and I'm currently only using 4gb in my laptop. I think this laptop and I are going to get along just fine!

Also, I will be able to upgrade that part as it comes available. Plenty of room!

When I last used 4gb on my x61s I couldn't even login to Slack using FF without swapping or thrashing-til-OOM when running without swap...

Oh wow, the MNT is surprisingly cool.

It reminds me of the Apple PowerBook 170 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerBook_170) I had in the early 90s.

I loved the trackball on those early PowerBooks.

MNT reform is also the best bet at getting a laptop with an ortholinear keyboard. https://www.reddit.com/comments/ocf32y

(I've seen some thinkpads with PCBs which use the Kailh chocs, but I don't think the laptop lids can close).

I can’t wait until they offer amd ryzen and come in a 15-16 inch form factor… no really I can’t wait, I ordered a framework yesterday tehehe

If it’s good and I want to continue with it as my daily I’ll keep supporting them when the bigger ryznier laptops ship too.

I'm with you 100%... I'm holding out for a 15" Ryzen Framework laptop

Am I the only one who just can't work with small laptops? I know and love the concept of the Framework laptop, but won't be able to contemplate buying one simply because it retains a Macbook-like form factor instead of a rugged 15" one with a tactile keyboard.

I love small laptops, but I hate the Macbook knock-off appearance and the giant trackpad.

Has anyone had luck with framework and openbsd? I'm having network card driver issues OOTB

There is a very nice writeup on using OpenBSD on the Framework laptop by joshua stein, one of the OpenBSD developers. Unfortunately he had to swap the wifi card as it was unsupported. https://jcs.org/2021/08/06/framework

I'm a couple days late to comment here, but I want to add the negative review I wish I'd read.

Linux support on the Framework is really poor, and that was especially disappointing to me since that was one of the top reasons I bought it.

Right on their install guidelines, it says to use 20.04 instead of 20.10 for Ubuntu or else WiFi may not work out of the box. Fine. Did that. But then there's a whole host of other problems.

It will drain 30%+ of your battery overnight while "sleeping." You can get it down to about 20% by using "deep" sleep, but then your trackpad settings won't persist (scrolling will switch directions, speed will change) and your WiFi chip will be slow upon waking.

It's also SLOW. I have 64 GB of RAM in this thing and even out of the box it takes double-digit seconds to open anything.

I also don't buy the "premium" feel people are talking about. My hinges are loose enough that the screen wobbles. Pushing down on the casing around the keyboard makes annoying clicking noises. I've opened it up and can see no reason for this other than an improper fit of the frame.

I bought the hype, and I spent a lot more money than I've ever spent on a computer before for something that will sit on my desk and collect dust.

I'm incredibly disappointed and feel like I was sold a bill of goods here. Don't make the same mistake.

If you want real Linux support, buy something that has stood the test of time.

Or, heck, buy a 2015 Chromebook Pixel and run Lubuntu on it with chrx. I'm still using that box over this one. It's a better experience and a much more premium device than this, even though I won't be able to repair it. But even after 6 years of frequent usage, its battery outlasts the Framework 6:1.

There are no fanless CPUs among the options, and the consumptions are not explicit. The only battery mentioned is 55Wh.

CPUs with the lowest consumption are (sorry for the obvious points)

-- battery efficient, allow for more work per charge;

-- silent, requiring no fan;

-- often cheaper;

-- still quite fast for normal use.

So, I would not do without...

CPUs with higher power consumption are:

- Irrelevant regarding battery life because I can get from my office to the conference room to my shop to my home and back to my office long before the battery dies even with hamstrung sleep states in modern processors; everywhere I work it's plugged in to a monitor, keyboard, mouse, and wall socket and I can't understand why you would use it otherwise.

- Still quiet, because the large heatsink is able to cool it while doing little work, and a large-diameter and thick fan doesn't have to spin like a jet turbine to cool it when it does need active cooling

- Really, really cheap per hour to operate over years of critical usage; if I quote my time at $100/hr, use a computer for 40 hours a week for 100 weeks, and am more effective by even 1%, you could easily justify spending $4,000; realistically a bigger processor is far less than that.

- Still quite fast even when I'm doing real work, unlike underpowered CPUs that throttle whenever I'm actually getting something done.

so I would not work with an underpowered processor.

We are discussing a modular laptop with hardware options. You would not work with James' options, others would - and he surely would.

> I can't understand why you would use it otherwise

Clearly you don't. But some do use it otherwise. There are no power outlets from where I am writing these very words.

> the large heatsink is able to cool it while doing little work

So the fans are normally off? Are they on only after minutes of heavy load?

...And I forgot about the side of ethics: electricity does not come from the energy harnessed by playing kittens and natural rubbing of sheeps in pastures. When computers can consume 0.3 or 3 instead of 30 or 300, it is just better - even a thousand times better.

> Still quiet, because the large heatsink is able to cool it while doing little work, and a large-diameter and thick fan doesn't have to spin like a jet turbine to cool it when it does need active cooling

Hmm... I have an i7 Framework (no VPro) and the fan on this things gets LOUD when it's under heavy load. Maybe I got used to my M1 Mac's fans never kicking on, but this thing is far from quiet. (I still love it though! Best laptop I've had in years)

I'm impressed by the (allegedly) tactile and clear keyboard

https://frame.work/blog/the-keyboard

but I'd be delighted to see a happy-hacking style layout, where the arrow keys are consigned to the fn layer (which should be configurable; the whole keyboard could be configurable by qmk). It would also be nice to see an option where the trackpad is replaced by a foldable joystick. Maybe this way one could get rid of the split (arrow) key and the short f keys and the short escape. Think of the vi users.

I would love to see a keyboard with an ortholinear layout [1] for the Framework Laptop. After switch to a dactyl manuform keyboard it is really painful to go back to a typical staggered layout. Touch typing is much easier and more natural when using a good ortholinear layout.

[1] https://mechlounge.com/interesting-ortho-ergo-keyboards/

In the hope that someone from Framework is reading, a 15" with 4K screen would be very nice - pretty please.

This discussion on coreboot looks good https://community.frame.work/t/free-the-ec-and-coreboot-only....

How much innovation can one company do though?

I'm itching for the day Framework starts offering a touchpad with physical mouse buttons.

Same, really not a fan of the dumbed-down Apple look laptops are heading in. Look to old school Thinkpads if you want "Linux-friendly" inspiration.

I just don't understand how everyone but me seems to just be okay with not knowing where left click stops and right click starts. They're just fine with having the pointer jiggle around whenever they click because their thumb doesn't stay perfectly centered while pressing down.

How do people live like this?

it's not hard, here's how i do it on a laptop w/gnome:

left click -> entire trackpad

right click -> 2 fingers entire trackpad or control + entire trackpad

Try the "two fingers for right" with the [Alt] modifier to resize a window... Mine will simulate the mouse wheel instead.

Tap to click. No one actually physically clicks the corner of the touchpad.

I physically click the corner of the touchpad (or 2 finger click).

So when you're mousing you hover your thumb over the pad? That's not tiring?

At least for me - I don't really use my thumb at all unless I'm trying to click and drag.

I click with the fingers doing the navigation, by simply raising and lowering them real fast.

If I'm clicking and dragging, I'll leave my pointer finger on the pad and raise and lower my thumb (it rests on the pad by default).

Don't get me wrong - I still much prefer a physical mouse, but if I have to use a touchpad I don't want to have to guess at where a button or scrollbar might be.

I just got a new laptop from tuxedo Computers because they had an i7 11800h option. Their laptops aren't modular but right now I'm valuing performance over modularity, maybe in the future my next laptop will be a framework one, hopefully they'll have top specs by then. Keep up the awesome work framework team!

I also have issues with vPro battery drain. I accidently bought the vPro AX210 wifi module, with a non vPro capable processor, but it still seems to cause issues. I guess it's a wifi module specific problem, even though vPro should not be enabled on the system?

Gotta have the option to have the super key not have the windows logo

Tux the penguin would be great

Are there any places (stores/conferences/meetups/etc) where we can feel the device.

I like to type on a keyboard for a few minutes before committing to ensure it feels ok for my wrists

It would probably help to specify your location.

SF Bay Area

“We only deliver to the US and Canada”. OK, will have to stay with my Macbook.

Yea, say what you want about Apple, but they seem to be one of the few tech companies that manage to ship all their products in all their configurations to almost all countries.

So many times I read a review for something interesting sounding only to find out that that version isn't sold where I happen to live.

Yeah, but Apple also charges a hefty premium outside the US. Just look at the prices of Apple products in the US and the EU, and then compare with Samsung/Google/OnePlus.

Whatever makes Apple products more expensive in the EU doesn't appear to apply to anyone else.

Maybe it's related to the warranty? Apple sells AppleCare separately, but it's basically a warranty that's already guaranteed under EU consumer law. So in the EU they should factor this into the price.

I thought the EU mandate was 2 years, and AppleCare+ is 2 additional for a total (in the USA) of 3?

You're right, for most EU countries it's indeed 2 years.

> The Directive offers a 2-year legal guarantee of conformity, from the date that the item was delivered to the consumer. Most countries have implemented a 2-year guarantee of conformity but six countries apply a longer duration, with 4 of them taking into account the expected lifespan of the product.

https://www.evz.de/en/shopping-internet/guarantees-and-warra...

It depends a bit though. Usually the first mandatory year is manufacturer warranty and the second and further years (where applicable) seller warranty only. So Apple is only on the hook for this if you bought from them and even then the burden of proof is on the consumer.

https://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/uk/

That's most likely due to VAT adding a 17-27% tax depending on the country. If you check your receipt, it will show you what the price was before tax.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_value_added_tax...

It's not that. A $800 iPhone and a $900 Samsung (US prices) will often end up costing the the same in the EU

So... sounds about right then?

800 US$ are 700 Euro. With 20% VAT that would be 840€. And then you have additional fees on electronics in some countries.

That's your usual "1-to-1 conversion" (with a sometimes like a "50€ premium").

But surely Apple and Samsung pay the same VAT, so a Samsung phone that costs $900 should sell for more than an iPhone that costs $800 if it was only VAT. Except that doesn't happen. The $800 iPhone costs the same (or more) as the $900 Samsung in Europe. Apple's relative markup compared to Samsung is much higher in Europe than in the US.

Something I've noticed a lot with tech products is that they "cost the same" (in number value) in USD as well as Euros or GBP, which actually makes them cheaper in the US. Take for example, the Awair Element air quality meter:

- Ordering in the US: USD$299[0] (~￡224) - Ordering in the UK: GBP￡299[1] (~$360 USD at the time of writing)

Even including 20% VAT in UK it should only cost around ￡270 by my calculations. Is shipping really that expensive? I find similar issues buying things online in Australia (and that's before expensive shipping, duty, import GST, etc.)

[0]: https://store.getawair.com/products/awair-element [1]: https://ukstore.getawair.com/products/awair-element

I've also seen the following for $ to € price comparisons:

1. Change $ sign to €

2. Add VAT

3. Round up to nearest x49/x99 marketing price.

Apple at times have been guilty of this method in my country at least

Nope. Here in Ireland where they have major offices not only is there no Apple retail but they only offer the Aluminium versions of Apple Watch. Currently no providers offer eSIM for Apple Watch but that shouldn’t stop me buying a better screen.

We’re actively building the infrastructure to launch in additional countries. It’s a challenging logistical environment at the moment, but we very much built and certified the product to be broadly available, and we are reminded of the interest in that daily!

Since you are gathering community interest here, may I ask if there are plans or non-plans for a FrameWork laptop with power efficient Ryzen 5000 series CPUs?

I don't need a laptop right now, but, I will prepone my plans and buy one right away if it existed.

I know of many people waiting for that before hitting the order button.

If you even offered the different keyboard types right now we can organise our own shipping and tax :)

What infrastructure is required other than charging extra for shipping? I ship stuff from the US to other countries all of the time.

I'd like to give a huge shout out to nrp, founder of Framework, for being super active on the Framework community forum, here on HN and I assume in 10 other places, answering questions, helping with debugging issues down to nitty gritty technical details.

For a founder, this is very unusual because there is an entire business to take care of and yet he finds time for all the above as well.

Thanks Nirav.

They are also seemingly burning the midnight oil getting shipments out the door on time with no significant schedule delays. I have one on the way that was shipped out and picked up quite late in the night.

I'm already happy that you're participating in this thread, so don't let my question pin you down too much, but are you able to give some indication of when you might be able to share news like a provisional timeline?

They shared an update on the Europe situation via newsletter:

You could consider https://puri.sm/products/librem-14 as an alternative (non-glued and upgradable battery, RAM, SSD).

There are plenty of ways to shop in the USA and get your products shipped to another country. Example: https://www.viabox.com/

Just a heads up that we’re only able to offer warranty service in countries we are shipping in.

Buying a Framework laptop today! Love the mission here.

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