How to fold an origami cat: Lexus takumi challenge (2020) | Hacker News Reader

How to fold an origami cat: Lexus takumi challenge (2020)

mag.lexus.co.uk

30 pointsiamwil42 comments

Ha! Have to laugh at one sentence in particular

> candidates are assessed in a number of ways, but one is via a decidedly non-digital method – the Japanese art of paper folding, origami.

As fingers are anatomical digits, folding using a non-digital method made me imagine people trying to fold paper using their elbows — and non-dominant elbow at that.

Haha that's actually really interesting- I feel like I've seen other examples like that, where a words meaning changes to the point where it's original meaning is novel, but I can't think of any off hand.

Other than the silicon valley "there's also that movie 'Armageddon'"

I can't imagine using the word "delete" except in association with computers.

The return key is a good example that only makes sense with a typewriter.

Also “press” applies to media when they don’t really do any pressing of prints.

Manual means related to the hands. So manual labour is working with one’s hands or a manual transmission is operated with one’s hand. Also manuals are the keyboards on an organ where you put your hands (but don’t you pull out stops with your hands…)

However it is also easy to think of manual as being the opposite of automatic—something could be manually operated or a computer system might have manual overrides.

Was a transmission referred to as manual transmission before automatic transmissions became a thing? I'd tend to think the transmission use of manual was specifically to designate it not being automatic.

The date on this says April 2. Is it possible that the timezone where it was published it was April 1 at the time of publication?

Not likely. The timestamp got updated to April 2 2020 for some reason, but the article is actually from 2015 as evident by a comment on the article page and the publication date of the YouTube video on April 24 2015.

Also your point would imply that the timestamp adjusts to the readers timezone, which it doesn't otherwise I would see April 1st but it also shows 2nd for me.

This reads a lot like "Invert a binary tree on a whiteboard" to me.

Hey now, let's not give anyone any ideas.

Lest we all now have to do that in ninety seconds, with our non-dominant hand.

draw binary tree

flip whiteboard upside down

I think you actually need a mirror to invert the tree.

just use the selfie camera

I get where they are coming from but it is daft in my opinion. I own a small UK based company.

I also can fold paper and have done so for roughly 40 years now. I'm getting quite good at it but have a way to go. Eric K was my original guide.

I prefer my employees to be fairly good at what I employ them for: IT. Paper worrying is a secondary skill that I never ask for. I tend to push for engineering skills like problem solving.

I can fold a three masted ship from a square metre of ali foil or a jack in the box jobbie (box folding) - I do know what I'm on about here.

The thing is that I don't judge my employees on their paper folding skills. I want technicians.

That's fine, but I think the people going through the test described on the page are not working in IT positions, they are working on the factory floor. Also, the test on the page doesn't apply to everyone on the factory floor, only the highest-rated people.

I don't think it's fair to take the preconditions from one group of roles, and apply it to another group.

Agreed. A wise-sounding old-school bit of tradition that just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Even in a job like theirs which requires working with your hands, work samples are a far better measure. Imagine passing over a maniacally obsessive, experienced, and incredibly competent metal finisher because of an otherwise irrelevant cognitive snag? Or a fine motor weakness so subtle that they didn't even realize they had completely compensated for it with their dominant hand for their entire life? Respecting and learning from traditions is really smart. Turning traditions into inflexible business rules... less so.

I totally get where you are coming from and I agree to your general premise of judging and evaluating the skills actually needed for the job.

However, your comment seems to miss the point and context of this story. It's about craftsman doing car manufacturing, so a test in dexterity and skill with your hands isn't completely out of line like you make it sound with your IT example. But even more importantly, this isn't about employment, it's about reaching a special status of excellence after at least 25 years of experience and ample time to prepare for this challenge, which doesn't just show skill and dexterity, but also patience and willingness to learn an otherwise useless skill. There is intrinsic value to the last part that often gets overlooked.

>> but also patience and willingness to learn an otherwise useless skill

Origami is certainly not useless! I've been doing it (badly) for 40 years. Some satellites unfurl their solar panels along some very cunningly designed mountain and valley folds. My paper maps get a different set of folds than they are manufactured with and pop open by pulling opposite corners (a sort of pleat).

The point I suppose I really failed to make properly is that forcing people (staff) to do a particular discipline rather than say allowing them to choose what it might be is a form of corporate wankery. By that I mean it looks good on paper (hah!)

Mass car manufacture does involve some nimble fingers still but not quite in the origami way. The boys and girls at say Toyota near Derby (Derbyshire, UK) need incredible situational awareness for safety and good hand eye co-ordination when doing whatever their cell is doing on the line. Cars like the Ariel Atom and the seriously luxury jobs like Rolls and the super cars which are generally built as individual units from start to finish by one team need all the skills. Even then, the paint shop will be another team and so on.

If I ran a car factory, I might be inclined to teach the staff how to work all materials from scratch, not just paper. I'd cover things like taps and dies in metal work - it is quite satisfying getting threads to match. Brazing and simple welding obviously. Sheet handling/bending etc. I'd cover basic concrete (1-2-3 mix for example) and simple reinforcement usage, perhaps some simple admixture usage. Woodworking would be basic joints, how to plan and build say a decking structure.

I'd teach life skills. I'd probably throw in how to fold a crane or frog whilst the conc. is curing. However, I own an IT company and the staff get scared when I get the big tools out 8)

I didn't want to imply that origami as a whole is useless, but doing it one-handed with your non-dominant hand under time constraints seems rather useless other than being a challenge.

Eric Kenneway! His posthumous Complete Origami remains a favourite. As were his models in Robert Harbin’s books.

I personally have just bought a Lexus (old) in the UK and think it’s well put together, and can completely understand the reasoning for pushing their top-most technicians into improving their brain plasticity by making them do things that are decidedly uncomfortable with their non-dominant hand. It’s not about folding paper at all.

This story is about crafts-people, who are specifically hired for skill and dexterity with their hands. Maybe it'd be more akin to being up to a certain speed typing.

How is this test at all related to the skills required in this job?

There’s probably something to be said about doing something quickly with high quality, and also in an unfamiliar way.

I'd guess that if you need 25 years experience at the job first then you've heard of and practiced the origami cat test.

Or designed some pretty nice cars for your portfolio.

I’d like to see a portfolio of origami cats tbh

I would hope they are clear about what they are looking for when they talk to candidates (Given the time, I doubt they were though!) but I've seen things like this as a way to see how people approach a novel/new problem. Are they excited about giving it a try? Are they meticulous, slow, careful? What kinds of optimizations do they attempt in the process, what questions are they asking along the way?

I work in support though, and being able to be resourceful, creative, comfortable with contradiction and complexity, but ultimately you need to reduce issues to something you can communicate to a less technical customer, so an exercise like that, at least if presented clearly to a candidate, can give a really good idea of how they handle new situations they may run into when there isn't anyone there to help them (like their right hand for example).

Put more simply, I learn more from how people react to and approach hitting a wall/a problem they've never seen before than testing their ability to follow simple instructions (write algorithm X in language Z).

My take: I don't think folding an origami cat in this fashion translates into the dexterity required to be a vehicle artisan. However, it's a very reasonable promotion test for its other qualities: The ability to make a training plan and follow through on it, putting in the time, evaluating your progress and honing your skill. There's also probably an element of "proving that you really want the job."

This explains a lot. I have a 2021 Lexus, and there are a few questionable design choices. Forefront is the infotainment system interface - way too complicated, prone to error, way too distracting. (You navigate the system with a touchpad on the console, while glancing over at the screen.)

A better test would be to unfold a cat origami, and figure out a less complicated, durable design from it.

What I like about this tradition is that it dignifies work and competence instead of treating it with contempt.

How exactly? You work 25 years at the company, you become one of the best at let say paintwork. You know all about the tools, the materials. You care about your craft deeply, people ask your opinion about particularly challenging tasks. You perhaps trained generations of your coworkers. But none of that matters because you can only fold a silly cat in 95s? I wouldn’t feel dignified at all.

It's gatekeeping, and no better than any other kind. I wonder how many truly excellent craftspeople they've held back or let go because they couldn't pass a test for a skill unrelated to their actual work. It calls the standing of those who do pass that test into question as well.

But some people are into gatekeeping, I guess.

Arguably, competence itself is the ultimate gatekeeper. One either did the work or didn't, recognizing when someone has done it is valuable, and offering deference to demonstrable expertise is efficient and wise. In most disciplines, there are key things you can't learn until you have the experience to understand them. There is a moral dimension to it as well, since we can't understand what we don't create, and talking about things we don't understand means bullshitting, which is both weak for everyone and ultimately deceptive.

If you want to fold the cat, work for 25 years. If you don't want to work for 25 years, don't fold the cat. Someone who folded that cat after 25 years isn't gatekeeping. The 25 years they spent before that is all the moat they need. I don't think anyone who hasn't spent that time gets to criticize it and be taken seriously.

> If you want to fold the cat, work for 25 years. If you don't want to work for 25 years

You seem to have left out the unrelated to the job part. To keep this civil, I'll just pretend I believe that you forgot and remind you. It's central to this discussion. Without it, your entire first paragraph is a non sequitur.

> I don't think anyone who hasn't spent that time gets to criticize

More gatekeeping. Also, if 25 years is the qualification for having an opinion then it applies to any opinion. Why should your defense of the practice be taken any more seriously than others' criticism?

I was saying that unless the people who have spent the time doing it, get to say what's related to the job or not. My support of the practice is based on having spent decades developing skills in a variety of fields, some from masters with several decades of experience.

Gatekeeping is an excuse people who suck at things make for not being accepted as a peer, when anyone who has been involved in a culture based on skill in any meaningful way recognizes skill is the truth, and complaints are complaints. If you want to stop gatekeeping, become great at something and become a great teacher, otherwise, find another discipline.

I feel it dignifies tradition. And that's lovely and has it's place -As a ceremonial or ritual or spiritual symbol particularly.

I feel it's the opposite of dignifying work though. Article indicates this applies to all kinds of craftsmen, many of which seem to be completely unrelated to the skill of one-hand origami-folding under pressure.

If they're allowed to practice however, I suppose it gatekeeps for comittment / "how badly do you want this"

"If they're allowed to practice however, I suppose it gatekeeps for commitment / "how badly do you want this""

Yeah, this is absolutely the most generous interpretation I can come up with, and even then I find it a bit wanting. If you are the best on the floor at task X but have a complex and stressful personal life, or even just other interests, or simply not the dexterity for this particular task, you get shut out.

I get it, excellence and all that.. I have too many hang ups from hearing people make fun of folks for bad spelling or whatever, touches a raw nerve.

Let's not forget people who only have one hand, or who have strength/motor problems that don't affect their own job in the slightest but do affect this exercise. If Lexus isn't making allowances for such things in the US, they're violating ADA and I don't have any respect for that at all.

Does this marketing piece for Lexus really belong on HN?

Ah, here we see the car maker’s version of fizz buzz and whiteboard coding.

Fizz buzz is at least plausibly closely related to an actual skill you’d need on the job: writing simple code.

Theres a sucker born every minute. That applies to job openings too.

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