There are people living in actual dictatorship countries who can't access the information vital to them, because Apple and Google happily do business with brutal dictators?
What!? Because someone buys an Apple phone they don’t want anyone else to be able to choose their own phone?
I use an iPhone and I fully support you making your own choices. I hope you used your choice to vote with your wallet and buy a pine phone or a librem.
I can't even fathom what's in brains of people who are fine with that!
It won't go away from your phone if already installed, but Apple sure has this ability.
With the App Store mechanic Apple can collectively bargain on behalf of users. Do you think companies would allow anonymous signin on a third party App Store? Or post how they collect and use your data? Of course not. Apple makes that happen.
If you want to use more than one App Store just buy an Android phone and get on with your day. If the Apple model of a single store is truly the inferior model Apple will be forced by market mechanics to allow others.
Speaking of silly slogans, how does my freedom to install an app on MY device degrade your experience?
Again, all this talk about freedom but you’re the one insisting that two consenting parties change what they do because that’s what you want. You’re going to need a better argument than that. Why are you bothering Apple and I from a consensual and peaceful transaction? How are we harming you? What “freedom” is being taken away? I guess you believe you alone have the freedom to “buy an iPhone from Apple that allows 3rd party app stores”. But I don’t have the freedom to buy an iPhone from apple that doesn’t allow this? Or that Apple doesn’t have the freedom to sell the device they want to sell?
You wanted to say, "To bargain for themselves using their users as leverage".
Also, about 'two consenting parties'. Apple never tells their users that they will be unable to run the apps they NEED. They tell 'we remove malware and keep you safe'. When a user finds out that Apple removed an app run by opposition on request of the authoritarian government, it is too late to ask for a refund.
I do not consent for this keeping me 'safe', but the vast majority of users do not know that they aren't free to use their devices as they want, running any app they need.
> You wanted to say, "To bargain for themselves using their users as leverage
No, I wrote what I wanted to write.
Should Apple leave China? Would the net effect be positive or negative for Chinese people? Ambiguous at best.
Of course it would have an enormous impact on Apple's financials and manufacturing abilities, with negative consequences worldwide.
Serenity for the things I can not change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
No. The solution is very simple.
Apple should simply allow users to install apps at will, sidestepping the AppStore. China tells to remove Signal from the AppStore? Whatever, Apple complies and users download it directly from Signal, sidestepping the great firewall via VPN or something.
This problem in its entirety was created by Apple's malicious desire to control what users can run on their devices. Consequently, this gives bad actors big leverage over Apple, which is forced to serve not only its greedy needs, but also the needs of those bad actors.
Problem solved?
Btw, how would you feel if you wouldn't be allowed to run any app you want on your MacBook? Apple rolls out new macOS 16, says, " For your own safety, AppStore is now mandatory".
Apple maintains a curated App Store, which puts them in gatekeeper mode for Chinese laws, in China.
I respect, appreciate, and value a curated App Store. The combination of circumstances above does conflict with my preference for the freedom of Chinese citizens.
But my disagreement is with the Chinese government, and their lack of accountability to the Chinese people. It's ethnocentric of me to assume that the Chinese people want Western-style freedoms -- and some evidence of unknown quality says they generally do not -- but I still believe that there are intrinsic rights of all humans which should not be oppressed by their governments.
I also believe that allowing alternative App Stores, or sideloading, on iOS would be destructive. By being the only game in town, Apple is able to enforce standards that are onerous sometimes (as an iOS developer) and unfairly applied sometimes (because that's a universal truth of the world), but on net add great value to iOS.
You obviously disagree, and that's cool. I'm very glad you are able to choose a product that suits your needs, and I am able to choose a product that suits mine.
Re: macOS App Store. It's different because I treat my phone as an appliance that should not surprise me nor require maintenance. It should always work. All apps should perform a function, and they should be available without extra hassles.
However, I don't hate the idea of additional OS protections on macOS. I like SIP and the ChromeOS RO boot partition model. I would like application segmentation. I use jails on FreeBSD and zones on Solaris.
This is easy for me to appreciate because I have other machines that are tuned to suit other sets of needs. I recognize that people with a single device (phone) or two devices (phone + laptop) who have needs that would conflict with OS restrictions will struggle more than I.
Your long argument boils down to this. I believe that the effect will be the opposite. Increased competition always benefits the customers. AppStore experience on the developer and on the user side is quite lacking, so if Apple would be forced to compete, everybody (but Apple) will benefit.
And it will also remove the leverage bad state actors like Russia or China have over the company.
You see, iPhone and iPad are not 'appliances', they are supercomputers, and users who want to use them as such must have this option.
This is clearly not an absolute truth, as it depends entirely on your criteria for evaluation.
> You see, iPhone and iPad are not 'appliances', they are supercomputers,
Nope. They're little toy tools. Doesn't matter the processing power, if it's consumed in adding filters to social media photos, or running an ssh session.
> and users who want to use them as such must have this option
But they do. There are other products.
By this logic, users who want the security of knowing they don't have to worry about the device, and want the value conferred by a common platform where vendors don't require users to do weird shit because they don't want to play by benevolent overlord's rules -- thereby cheapening the entire ecosystem ... "must have this option" also.
Look, I get it. We disagree. But your preferences are not any more important than mine. It's a mistake to present your strongly-held preferences as absolute truth.
I repeat once again: you should not have the ability to impose your lack of the need for freedom on other people. "Buy another device" is not a valid choice. Users buy in because they are advertised 'great user experience', but then this turns into 'we'll block apps that you need on request from your local authocrats'. They aren't told in advance that Apple will abuse their monopoly position and unfair and abusive practice of not allowing third party installs.
You should not (and you do not) have the ability to impose your demands on any manufacturer of any product. You cannot compel the work of another human being.
Product advertising always comes with presumed context. "Less filling, tastes great" might be a lie, but even if many people agree, many others do not. "Great user experience" is about as obviously-subjective as you can get. This is a red herring.
Apple does not abuse a monopoly position. Apple does not have a monopoly on anything. It is not unfair or abusive to not compromise their device and ecosystem (security, privacy, marketing, etc) to allow a niche use.
In fact it would be a terrible technical and business decision to reduce the value of your flagship product for the vast majority of the market, to serve a sliver of same.
Again: we disagree. If you can't grow past the overdramatic language of righteousness to think about this issue rationally, we will not be able to communicate. I am not insisting that you will agree with me if you are rational -- but you're presenting the arguments of someone who is incapable of thinking beyond their own nose, or believes that the truth they've found for themselves is universal. In short, like a child or a zealot.
Of course that control is not always good, but it's also not always bad.
[1] https://www.theregister.com/2019/01/30/facebook_apple_enterp...
If you just don’t buy an iPhone then maybe market forces will cause Ape to add this (to your eyes) feature.
That's exactly what I did, but I know several iPhone users who don't feel comfortable making the switch despite being unhappy with Apple's policies. It's a big deal to change ecosystems for people who are heavy mobile users. It might mean getting new accessories, learning new apps (or not having a direct replacement for an app), and losing several other benefits of being in a single ecosystem.
It's ridiculous to say that customers should shut up and take their business elsewhere. If current users don't speak up about Apple's consumer/developer-hostile behavior, who will?
> developer-hostile
It's the developers who are mostly hostile TBH. That's why they're railing against things like Apple enforcing data permissions or making developers at least nominally fess up to how they are fucking you and stealing your data. Developers aren't some magical good "guy/gal" to be put on a pedestal.
Once and again, you project your needs (or lack of them) on other people.
Your reasoning is exactly this: "I don't like gay people. Gay sex should not be allowed".
Why does you not wanting multiple app stores matter? Many Android users don't set foot outside the Play store and you could do the same. Apple supporting "sideloading" or even just supporting the PWA spec would only increase the options for using your phone, without forcing you to change your current usage at all.
> It's the developers who are mostly hostile TBH.
Now you're being deliberately disingenuous. Apple has a long track record of developer-hostile behavior.
No I'm not. Developers are clearly user-hostile. Facebook anyone? This is obvious.
> Why does you not wanting multiple app stores matter?
Because if developers can leave the Apple App Store and move to third party app stores, then all of the benefits of collective bargaining that go along with Apple making developers do things like support Apple anonymous ID, or state what they use data for, go out the window because Apple loses it's dominant position on the platform. And there is little to no benefit for me as a user. I don't care if Netflix (contrived example) makes less money because Apple takes a cut. Apple provides me with a valuable and easy to use payment mechanism. It's not worth the trade-off for me. So yea I'm going to oppose something that doesn't add value to me and takes away value from me.
"Vote with your wallet" is a bogus argument because undercutting the rights of the consumers that actually pay for the device and own it, in effect means that consumers end up with no choice. If Apple says you can only install apps from App Store, and Google says Android phones will spy on you, who do I turn to if I don't want both these features? There is no real choice, not only because corporates form alliances and behave like cartels to not only stem competition but also to ensure the rights of the consumers are suppressed (e.g. Apple has actively lobbied against the right-to-repair movement). Suppressing consumer rights only benefits big businesses.
Or is it that consumer rights only matter when they come from you?
Every time this conversation comes up people act as though the 3rd-party App Store stuff is a good thing that everyone inherently wants and if you don't want it you must be violating some user rights or w/e and be a corporate shill for apple against the innocent little poor developer community.
All platforms, software or otherwise have restrictions of some sort. I can't just sell whatever I want at Wal-Mart or Amazon. Maybe consumers do want products with lead in them if they're cheaper - who are you to deny their freedom of choice? I'll take my own risk thank you very much.
So w/e. Frame it how you want. Ultimately it'll happen but it's going to suck hardcore. Thankfully I don't use products like Facebook so I won't have to worry about them siphoning my data directly on my iPhone but there's no doubt they and other companies going to move to a 3rd-party store or create their own so they can do whatever they want. Put lead in products, take user's data, w/e, and in the end nothing of value will actually be gained. Netflix and Facebook and whoever will make more money because they won't have to pay Apple to use the iPhone platform. You're just pitting some billion dollar corporations versus others and siding with some over others. You'll have this principled freedom of a worse experience of adware, malware, and scummy user-hostile behavior.
You do realise that if the rights of the consumers are upheld, as many are advocating for, you could use whatever app store you want, right?
No it’s not. You guys guys spend all this time complaining about Apple and Google. But getting them to change is going to be a long game if they change at all.
What you guys are not doing is promoting phones that are open. These products aren’t going to get better without customers.
As it stands, what it looks like is you guys hate Apple and Google and then just turn around and buy more of their products.
That criticism is somewhat true and the reason for it is that it is a short term solution - it still means you are accepting that corporates gets to dictate how your devices should be and what you can do with it. (For the short term, absolutely - let's support and buy their products too. For e.g. I don't own an iPhone or Android phone and instead rely on https://sailfishos.org/ ).
I am all for free market and capitalism. But you have to first understand the nature of both.
For-profit companies will always choose the most profitable path. The more profit you make, the longer you survive in the market and the better you can squeeze out your competition. Open devices mean less profit. And that is why none of the current BigTech are focusing on it. As capitalists they would be fools to sacrifice their profits for something that will make them less money. Moreover, what guarantees do you have that tomorrow that these same open devices won't end up closed? Or that one of the BigTech won't buy them and scuttle their product when they become competitive (because that's exactly what they will do)?
This is why we have consumer rights and government regulations - without them businesses would only focus on more profits and, black marketing, hoarding, and other anti-consumer and anti-competitive behaviours would still be very dominant in the market.
That is why the real long-term solution is demanding existing consumer rights / regulations be enfored and / or new ones be created as necessary.