Toxic Positivity Is Real, and Annoying | Hacker News Reader

Toxic Positivity Is Real, and Annoying

wsj.com

50 pointspaulpauper29 comments

Give shit like this a platform, and then wonder why social interaction is dying out. Sure is easier to just not talk to anybody.

Or you can kindly hear people when they tell you they’re in pain, listen to what they need and what they’re struggling with, and go from there. If your definition of talking to someone is making them feel shittier by being “positive”, without regard for whether it makes them feel shittier, yeah you’re already not socially interacting with them. You’re just one-sided dumping your frame of mind and interpretation on them.

And in this case, they're one-sided dumping their frame of mind on me, (which can be downright abusive) and anything I say either way, supportive or non-supportive can be held against me, pending interpretation.

So it sounds like your intent is to be dismissive with positivity to avoid abuse by an undue burden of negativity. I mean, I’ve experienced that kind of abuse so I don’t blame you. But I still the response that way, I think there are better ways to protect yourself, and I think a lot of people who are in pain and feel unheard deserve better than emptiness of any kind regardless of the positivity expressed.

I was invited to an icebreaker-type meeting where the topic was "how have the lockdowns improved your life." Doesn't that just make you feel warm and fuzzy?

Maybe we’re just getting older and realizing forced social interaction isn’t necessarily a useful goal?

There’s no center of the universe; why does social life, big picture, have to march along with root principles?

Why are school schedules the way they are? Why is school in a bunch of dumpy buildings and not like a sole proprietorship that serves its neighbors, reimbursed for resources so long as it follows some curriculum that in the end just provides basic problem solving skills acquisition?

We need people with skills to make life supporting things. A whole lot of the rest of it, retail jobs peddling disposable crap people could make if they didn’t need a retail job, is just serving old stories.

Maybe constantly needing to socialize is an application of agency we don’t need. Maybe it’s reinforced a lot given institutions push us into competitive groups to haggle in Germanic/Romantic/Arabic/etc gibberish.

>Telling someone who is in emotional pain to buck up is invalidating and dismissive. Not only are you diminishing their feelings, you’re telling them that these feelings are part of their problem.

Or it's the result of a lifetime of learning about your own emotional reactions. If teaching is toxic, who can learn?

If their mode prevents them from receiving your wisdom, is it on you to change your presentation or on them to change their mode?

And likewise when you’re on the receiving end?

Or is this a joint responsibility?

I’ve learned a lot that’s helped me cope with, or resolve or work towards resolution of things that have caused me incredible pain. Almost none of it I’ve learned from being treated as a pupil while in the depths of that pain. Quite a lot I’ve learned from having a patient ear attached to a caring person who gave me space to process what I was experiencing. Quite a lot more was from time to let the worst subside and process more alone. In the latter, I’ve learned more from others than I ever have from their direct advice.

The problem with teaching people when they’re in a moment of profound weakness is there’s an implied demand: my advice is rational, you aren’t in a rational state of mind, choose one.

>my advice is rational, you aren’t in a rational state of mind

That's not just a problem with teaching, it's the entire problem. Understanding both these things will be true at the same time requires maturation or emotional discipline, which it's not yet taboo to describe as learned behaviors.

Here’s what I actually said:

> The problem with teaching people when they’re in a moment of profound weakness is there’s an implied demand: my advice is rational, you aren’t in a rational state of mind, choose one.

You’re just making the demand explicit. It’s still a demand, not a fact.

Edit: to be really clear, this attitude that you have rational advice and I’m irrational is a way to ensure that any approach you take that shows any hint of it is suspect. You may believe it all you want, you might even be correct, but I’m just getting manipulation signals.

You're wrong, and that's why anybody helping you will fall on deaf ears.

Humans are irrational. Irrationality can be managed, understood, and harnessed. Don't pretend that grief is an impenetrable weapon against rational thought.

The word “toxic” is real, but also annoying too.

Job's comforter positivity

Archived version to bypass the paywall: https://archive.ph/vV4Aa

This is a uniquely American problem. At least that is the only place I have every seen this.

Which aspect is uniquely American, toxic positivity behavior or feeling harmed by positivity the rest of the world finds innocuous or helpful?

The over the top levels of positivity but without substance that is common in America. It kind of goes hand in hand with a culture where saying things directly is looked down on. It is considered socially unacceptable to say things directly in America, so one should always try to fluff everything over with vague, feel good terms and code words.

Anyway, I shouldn't have called it a 'problem' as Americans are completely fine with that, and they like it that way. My only point is the behavior the author of the article is talking about only happens in America.

The biggest tell on Twitch, Youtube, or anywhere else is something to the effect of "good vibes only" with ruthless, draconian, chilling-effects enforcement.

Top-tier universities and corporate coworkers also exhibit this tendency where it's "happy", phony, shallow, cocktail party-attitude interactions and smalltalk. It's mentally unhealthy.

The alternative isn't toxic negativity, but nuanced, real life spanning the gamut of human experience.

The biggest lies we tell are often the ones to ourselves. Looking in the mirror and acknowledging our ugliness is aa very unnatural thing. Most people die before ever confronting themselves with the truth. We do this often on both a personal and societal level. While flaws are human, somehow admitting it in ourselves is not.

OK, I’ll bite. Pray tell, what is this objective thing that you call “the truth”? Imagine you are responding to a worldly 70-something who has lived a rich and full life and who doesn’t suffer fools gladly. So, what is “the truth”? Try not to be trite.

Yeah I feel the same about the parent comment. Who can say we don't confront ourselves and at one point had one reached this mystical state of mind where one has confronted themself fully? It's a very vague opinion to make the teller feel holier than thow.

The parent made no claims about objectivity. If your 70+ years of richness and fullness has left you capable of complete honesty with yourself and others about your flaws, then congratulations, seriously. I guess you'll have to use your imagination to try to relate to the rest of us fools.

Paywall, so going on the title and lead paragraph:

“Sometimes the worst thing you can say to a person who’s feeling bad is: “Cheer up!””

Well, let’s consider some alternatives:

- Please continue to wallow in your pit of despair and drag me in with you.

- Please bleed way over there, you’re scaring the children.

- Just shut up already.

- Have you considered addictive drugs?

- Have you considered years of expensive therapy?

- Have you considered my personal cult?

- Have you considered suicide?

- Hey, look at my obscenely expensive new toy!

No, I think there are many, many worse things to say than “Cheer up!”

Among the better things to do might be to shout out a rousing chorus of “Always look on the bright side of life”. If you can whistle. Humor can be a wonderful tonic. In fact NYC Jewish humor is purpose-built for these situations.

Erring by maintaining too positive an attitude leads to minor annoyance to the people most deserving of minor annoyance…at most. Erring by maintaining too negative an attitude can lead to drugs, suicide, cults, soul-crippling depression and the like. Always, at least, glance at the bright side of life.

I'm sorry that empathy seems to be an elusive concept for you. I hope that no one ever reaches out to you feeling bad and are greeted with a tone deaf bastardization of Monty Python

People don't want advice, judgement or cheering up, they want to feel that they matter; that their voice has been heard. Acknowledge that they may be in pain and they are justified in feeling the way that they do. They are not wrong or broken, they've had an understandable response to their circumstances. Don't wallow in it but meet them where they are and seek only to understand and listen.

If they let you in you can ask what you can do to help. If not, go whistle somewhere else.

"Life is a piece of shit, when you look at it" that is from Monty Python and it isn't wrong, and it isn't toxic positivity.

Gloria: See. if I'm thirsty. I don't want a glass of water, I want you to sympathize. I want you to say, "Gloria, I too know what it feels like to be thirsty. I too have had a dry mouth." I want you to connect with me through sharing and understanding the concept of dry mouthedness.

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/White_Men_Can%27t_Jump

I think the issue is when the positivity gets in the way of acknowledging the situation. Sometimes "damn, that sucks man" are the words I need to hear.

I think it’s obviously implied in the quoted paragraph that the intended audience is people who mean well with their toxic positivity but don’t understand why it’s harmful. Sure, “the worst” is too strong a claim even tempered by “sometimes”, but maybe give a little benefit of the doubt that there’s some context to frame what the article finds harmful about toxic positivity?

Anyway, I don’t need to read the article to say that the alternative, if you care for someone, to toxic positivity isn’t negativity or even misguided/bad advice. A much healthier and more helpful alternative is to give space for people to feel how they feel, to be heard in their expression of those feelings, and to feel engaged in the discussion of the aspects of their problem that are challenging or hurtful. “Cheer up”, in a lot of contexts, can sound a lot like any one of the “worse” alternatives on your list. At best, it’s a reassurance to someone you know will receive it well. By default it’s an empty dismissal of real pain without any notion of how to navigate that pain to any particularly more cheery emotional state.

If I’m experiencing poor mental health, my assumption hearing “cheer up” or similarly vacant positive responses is “shut up” or some variation thereof. It’s not so different if I’m in a better mental health state, it’s just less painful to hear because it’s easier to ignore.

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