Comment by gameman144 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by gameman144 | Hacker News Reader

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I hear this all the time I'm these discussions, but I call bunk. Sure, small talk is filler content, but you're not going to jump straight into the more meaningful conversations with people you don't yet know.

The filler small talk content isn't the substance, it's the launching point for those more substantive conversations.

For instance, maybe you got the hat at a concert in Wichita, and this person at the gas station grew up in Wichita. Maybe they spent their career designing hats. Maybe their deceased kid used to love hats and seeing it reminded them of their kid. You don't know what the "actually interesting" topics available are until you actually spend ten seconds talking to someone.

As with almost anything, people are free to ignore you or reject social conventions, that's totally their right. But it's also totally fine to try to start a conversation with someone.

You're right that some people, for one reason another, might not want to carry a conversation. In those cases, they can simply not carry the conversation. One of the joys of being human, though, is commiserating with fellow humans. If the location isn't one where conversation is strictly verboten (e.g. movie theaters, gym machines, library study rooms), I see no reason why people shouldn't (respectfully) see if the other is up for a conversation.

>But it's also totally fine to try to start a conversation with someone.

I would agree (and really wish I could) if most people would recognize disinterest and stop there, but anecdotally I'd say half the time it's met with anger or some form of pointed dissatisfaction. People have outright touched me to get my attention about some off-hand comment I ignored initially. It's frequent enough where I'm conditioned to start looking for an exit when I'm approached by someone in public.

It's incredibly unpleasant to feel obligated to continue small talk because you fear what happens if you don't. I can not support any kind of small talk under the reality of what comes along with it. It's one of those cases where some people ruin it for everyone else.

> I can not support any kind of small talk under the reality of what comes along with it.

Eh, I can understand that, but in my mind this seems like one of the purest instances of not letting the assholes co-opt the thing I like.

Some people can't take no for an answer in loads of contexts. In my mind, the proper response is to call those people out for their misbehavior, stigmatize those bad actions, and let the vast majority of good actors and positive experiences carry on.

Thanks for the understanding, and I totally get that your experience is different from my own.

I just don't feel like I have the physical or mental capacity to call everyone out, though I'm incredibly grateful for those who help out if someone's clearly being bothered in public (especially men calling out other men who are just out there hitting on strangers). Bystanders have gotten me out of a couple very uncomfortable situations in the past.

> I would agree (and really wish I could) if most people would recognize disinterest and stop there,

For all the whinging about anti-social nerds, I've found the people most obtuse when it comes to social niceties to be the overtalkative that don't pick up on subtle cues that the person they are haranguing just wants to be left alone and get on with whatever they were involved in before they were so rudely interrupted.

No one owes anyone attention, particularly undivided.

>The filler small talk content isn't the substance, it's the launching point for those more substantive conversations.

While that's certainly possible, it doesn't need to be a launching point for anything.

It can just be an offhand remark, a chuckle and a reply and off you go. Not every interaction needs to have some sort of agenda or goal associated with it.

At least that's how I see it.

The "launching point" is often the scary part. If I knew that every remark from a stranger was just a remark and I could say thanks and move on with my life I'd feel much better.

Instead it's a tightrope walk. You have to be appreciative but not too appreciative, you need to be disinterested but not too disinterested. Sometimes it doesn't matter and you lose anyway.

Appear too appreciative and you're hounded by someone (or worse, I've had friends that have been followed)... look too disinterested and you've earned their ire.

I will note that this is largely a problem of male strangers talking to women (it's not universal of course, I've personally witnessed these issues across all varieties of people).

>The "launching point" is often the scary part. If I knew that every remark from a stranger was just a remark and I could say thanks and move on with my life I'd feel much better.

>Instead it's a tightrope walk. You have to be appreciative but not too appreciative, you need to be disinterested but not too disinterested. Sometimes it doesn't matter and you lose anyway.

You don't have to do anything. A polite nod and walking away isn't bad, but not even that is required.

>Appear too appreciative and you're hounded by someone (or worse, I've had friends that have been followed)... look too disinterested and you've earned their ire.

Well, yes, there are crazies out there, and it's probably best to stay away from them. But IME, those folks are few and far between.

>I will note that this is largely a problem of male strangers talking to women (it's not universal of course, I've personally witnessed these issues across all varieties of people).

Yes. That's definitely a problem. And one that pisses me off a great deal. But that's not a problem with small talk, that's a problem with entitled assholes and the aforementioned crazies.

That's not about small talk though. That's about power and, sadly, that's always been, and likely always will be, a problem.

And women have had to come up with a variety of ways to deal with this. Whether it's to ignore the person and walk away or politely (or not so politely) decline to continue the interaction.

Until every human is well-adjusted and relatively sane (meaning never), that will be an issue.

You appear to be arguing that because a small group of jerks make interaction occasionally uncomfortable, no one should ever interact with anyone. That seems a little extreme to me.

Note that I'm not telling you (or anyone else) what to do or not do.

Edit: clarified my prose.

This exchange is a very good illustration of what happened with the #metoo movement: a woman explains the toll that street harassment has on their life, and a man that has never experienced that brushes it off with a #notallmen.

While I agree that having small talk with strangers once in a while could be very healthy, I also try to remember that a woman has to unwillingly interact tens of times a day with male strangers just by walking in the street, sometimes with very scary outcomes, and being like "yeah but I am different" is not an appropriate response.

I don't, as you put it, "brush it off" at all.

What, exactly, do you suggest I do about it?

That's not a rhetorical question.

I have no control over the "crazies" or the "Entitled assholes."

I only have control over my actions.

So please, do tell. What is it I'm supposed to do other than treat those around me with courtesy and respect?

You say that you don't brush it off at all, but just before you said "But IME, those folks are few and far between.". Your experience does not really matter here if you are not a woman that experiences that type of harassment.

What the person you were replying to was trying to tell you is not that the problem are men who start the conversation with "hey pretty girl, can you sit on my face?", but rather people who start with a polite conversation, and if they feel they are met with a warm reaction think it opens the door to more.

It might be only a small percentage of guys who follow up with inappropriate actions, but when as a woman you get 20+ men a day starting to make small talk with you, you end up with a high probability of having at least some of them being weirdos.

On the other hand if the woman answers coldly to the small talk tentative, some people may take it in a bad way. The line you have to walk to not appear too warm to weirdos and not too cold to easily offended people is very thin.

If you can't understand that under these circumstances some women become anxious at the idea of men starting small talk with them, well that's too bad.

As for what you can do, maybe start with asking women you know how they feel about it. Maybe they are all fine with it. It is also very dependent of where you live. If you live in a dense city women get harassed way more often than in a suburb area, it's kind of a number problem.

You're the worst kind of person.

You assume bad faith and evil from everyone except yourself.

You read what you wanted to read into my comment and ignored anything that contradicted your view that I'm ignorant/oblivious/probably an evil harassing rapist.

I live in the most densely populated city in the US, and was born, raised and have lived here most of my life.

I am acutely aware of the situation and the issue, but you assume you know know better than anyone else. Which is a bunch of entitled (although entitlement of a different kind than I mentioned in the comment to which you responded) bullshit from an entitled, self-righteous asshole. That'd be you, in case there was some confusion about that.

So, as I should have said (which was my initial impression, given your deliberately obtuse and clearly bad faith response to my comment), fuck off jerk.

Which is what most women I know will say to entitled assholes like you.

Edit: It occurs to me that I didn't explain myself clearly enough. As such, I will. And I'll use small words so you'll be sure to understand.

>If you can't understand that under these circumstances some women become anxious at the idea of men starting small talk with them, well that's too bad.

Who said that? Not me. In fact, I said just the opposite.

>As for what you can do, maybe start with asking women you know how they feel about it.

Who says I haven't? I'm sure I've had more conversations about stuff like this than you have. But you seem to be so wrapped up in how sensitive you are to even imagine that someone else could have been there long before you.

>Maybe they are all fine with it. It is also very dependent of where you live. If you live in a dense city women get harassed way more often than in a suburb area, it's kind of a number problem

I am quite aware. But small talk isn't harassment. That you equate them says more about you than it does about the very serious problem of harassment.

Given that you've decided that anyone who doesn't explicitly mirror your talking points, they're obviously idiots, evil or both, shows exactly how disrespectful, self-centered and entitled you are. I definitely wouldn't leave any woman alone with you.

Wow, that was a very measured response to my comment.

From what you wrote it looks obvious to me that you completely missed the point I was trying to make, but I share the responsibility for that at least as much as you do, it is not easy to get points across through HN comments, especially when you have no clue who you are talking to (+ I am not an english native speaker in case that was not obvious yet).

I could try to re-explain things better, but you have shown that you are not in a state to take in anything that I say anymore, so I hope you will eventually find a friend who can explain it to you better than I did (and that you will refrain to insult them just because you feel attacked).

> could try to re-explain things better, but you have shown that you are not in a state to take in anything that I say anymore

Don't. I understood you perfectly well.

It's not that I'm unable or unwilling to "take in" what you say. Nor am I angry or upset. I just don't suffer fools gladly[1].

>I hope you will eventually find a friend who can explain it to you better than I did

I understand the issue just fine, thanks. It's you who didn't understand me. I'll chalk that up to you not being a native English speaker.

>and that you will refrain to insult them just because you feel attacked

I didn't insult you because I felt attacked. I didn't intend to insult you at all.

Rather, I called you out for your nastiness and bad faith. Because you deserved it. And I stand by that assessment.

Your self-righteous[0] tone is unwelcome here (and in most places).

[0] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/self-righteous

[1] https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/does...

I'd also point out that commenting on the quality of the chicken noodle soup while on line at the supermarket (that's small talk) and randomly walking up to someone and tell them how sexy they look and suggest they sit on your face (that's harassment) are wildly different things.

Or do you believe they are exactly the same thing?

I agree completely.

Continuing the conversation, and using it as a launching point for something substantial, is a reasonable reaction.

Stopping the conversation with a friendly dismissal, a "chuckle and a reply and off you go" as you said, is a reasonable reaction.

Reacting rudely and thinking "who are you, why are you subjecting me to the labor and chore of talking to you?" is not a reasonable reaction.

>Stopping the conversation with a friendly dismissal, a as you said, is a reasonable reaction.

To clarify, I didn't mean that "chuckle and a reply and off you go" was the means to extricate oneself from such a situation although, as you said, it's a reasonable thing to do.

I meant that an "offhand remark, a chuckle and a reply and off you go" was the whole point of such an interaction -- not some sort of prelude to something beyond that.

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