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Comment by pelasaco | Hacker News Reader

I live partially in Germany and Portugal, as I have roots in both country. You are right, the average salaries are a joke and the living costs are sky rocketing. However, you have a great and stable society, a really specific market, good universities and sometimes I think what is missing is initiative. The young people prefer to go abroad than try to innovate in Portugal. For example, almost all disrupting startups in Portugal are lead by Brazilians. Sometimes I have the impression that we all forgot about our resilience (well described by Camoes and Pessoa).

To all my Portuguese friends:

"Viver não é necessário. Necessário é criar."

Fernando Pessoa

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You're 100% right - though I don't think it's easy to risk it in Portugal, neither it's praised.

I think our worst problem is that the majority seems to be ok giving the appearance that they're ok in life. I can't blame them, like some said: we have good weather and good food... low cost flights allows us to travel and post on social media showing we're going places... so in reality it seems like everything is ok.

Yet it's not.

Agostinho da Silva might say we're fulfilling our destiny of being "vadios" and artists, since he claims that's a way of living very rooted in our culture, waiting for machines to come do the work for ourselves. If that time will ever come, will be pros.

I tried my own venture, and failed. In fact I've tried many things and failed at them. And I do wonder sometimes, what's the point?

I always fold to play guitar, sketch, and have laughs with friends while we eat a home made meal.

Otoh a society that values leisure and social cohesion than cold efficient capital making sounds like a much more fulfilling place to fill out a few score trips around the sun than waking up at 60 with no hobbies in a cold dead mansion.

Maybe the solution is just to go abroad if you find you can’t not be getting your excitement from taking business risks

The reason you get the impression that countries like Portugal or Greece prioritize leisure is that you spend your vacations there and mostly interact with the wealthier residents. The relaxed Greek pensioner who speaks fluent English may appear to be middle class by your standards, but is actually a member of the elite. The actual average Greek is the one who is busting their butts off mopping the pristine facade of your Santorini Airbnb.

Portugal actually has one of the longer working hours in the EU. Despite the reputation that Greeks are lazy, they actual work the longest. If the upper classes of these nations worked harder, they would create more higher-skill jobs for the average resident, so they wouldn't have to resort to working menial jobs for longer hours.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_a...

From every German tourist visiting Portugal: "Oh its so nice that in Portugal, the supermarkets are every day open"

Mind you the two hour lunches with a bottle of wine and naps are something.

I think there’s a level on which a chill society doesn’t feel as much collective need to produce as much, though your point is very valid as well. A 11 hour workday that involves a hammock and a nap for instance. Or, a crazy idea, if one can provide some security for themselves with a more basic job. This isn’t really what exists, it’s usually richer countries with more leisure. But not always

Mind explaining how to find this initiative of yours if you're living paycheck to paycheck?

In the end is about how much you want to sacrifice. Put some money aside, invest your free time, believe in an idea, but in the end: Put in the Work! Specially in our branch. A full stack developer earns in average EUR 1.500/month in Portugal. Work remotely from Portugal, have a side gig and make it happens.

Coming from Poland (theoretically a country with lower salaries than Portugal) this strikes me as super low - you can easily earn 2-3x that working remotely for English-speaking contracting companies, and way way more if you try to get a job at a remote first tech company.

Really? Care to elaborate how demanding are these jobs in terms of productivity, hard skills, etc?

Might be relevant:

https://taxfoundation.org/comparing-corporate-tax-systems-eu...

going abroad is initiative too

and actually there's very little initiative there too,

seen it too many times, comfortable at parents place / not desperate, why bother going abroad

I guess it’s the same situation as in Spain - if you earn a degree and you stay in Portugal you’re a grade A idiot. In other words brain drain.

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