High Fructose Corn Syrup-Moderate Fat Diet Potentiates Anxio-Depressive Behavior | Hacker News Reader

High Fructose Corn Syrup-Moderate Fat Diet Potentiates Anxio-Depressive Behavior

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

66 pointsJPLeRouzic60 comments

Anecdotal, but I recently started a no-sugar diet just to see what would happen, and I saw an immediate improvement in my mood. I wake up feeling excited about my day instead of groggy. I also get less tired in the evenings after work. It's not perfect, but there's a clear difference. I'm not going back.

Also, it made me realize how much sugar/HFCS/etc. is in everything.

I have a feeling the next few decades of research will make us realize how horrible our diets are.

I didn't have much of a change in energy or mood, but my allergy issues showed an immediate improvement.

Out of curiosity - how long (days/weeks) did it take you to notice your allergy improvements?

Try a month and you should see dramatic improvement.

Well, I was diagnosed with childhood asthma and I spend the average day with some sort of allergy that affects my sinuses and lungs. But after a few weeks, the allergy symptoms I had were much less severe. My headaches went away entirely.

Even if you can't cut out sugar from your diet entirely (which is really hard given how much added sugar there is in anything that hasn't been pulled directly out of the ground), giving up sugary drinks and candy will make a big difference, as they're the biggest offenders. Even if you switch from a sugary drink to the zero-calorie version of that drink, you'll be doing yourself a favor in the long run; the jury's out on how bad aspartame is for you, but we know very well how bad these quantities of sugar are for you.

I would try to avoid taking I too much sweetener either. I am on a low sugar diet and whenever I eat a lot of stuff with sweetener I gain weight. I think the body starts acting on the sweetness signals it gets but because there is no actual sugar to process, things get out of whack.

Yes, I don't want to suggest that artificial sweetener is harmless, only that (as far as we can currently tell) it appears to be less harmful.

zero-calorie versions sounds like a bandaid, just get on non sweet drinks entirely. Saying this as a water drinker.

The amount of water that goes into creating soda is ridiculous, too.

"[it takes] as much as 132 gallons of water to make a 2-liter bottle of soda" https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB123483638138996305

If you do the math, a 2-liter bottle of soda = up to 250, 2-liter bottles of water

> Even if you switch from a sugary drink to the zero-calorie version of that drink, you'll be doing yourself a favor in the long run; the jury's out on how bad aspartame is for you, but we know very well how bad these quantities of sugar are for you.

this statement is logically incorrect - if the 'jury is out' on aspertame, when it 'reconvenes' it could discover that it is worse for you than HFCS, and so no, in fact, the prophylactic switching that you speak of would in fact be detrimental.

Anecdotally, I feel much worse on 0cal/diet beverages than HFCS equivalent - the 0cal/diet ones seem much more likely to trigger headaches/inflammation in me, though it could be that I don't "think" i need as much food so I actually let the diet drink facillitate bad nutrition which in turn triggers these things ... probably the real 'safe bet' is to switch away from both regular and diet soft drinks, since HFCS also is not good

Good 0 cal drinks to try are: water, coffee, and tea.

If we go to the extreme, coffee is potentially carcinogenic (charred beans -> acrylamide, but research is inconclusive), and tea contains mercury, fluoride, and arsenic.

It's hard to say whether aspartame is worse or better than tea and coffee.

People have been drinking coffee and tea for over one thousand years, my friend.

People have been smoking for over seven thousand years and consuming alcohol for over nine thousand years. What is your point?

Probably that if there were bad side effects from coffee or tea, we’d know about it. Like we know about alcohol’s.

Precisely. And we knew about smoking's, centuries before scientific studies conclusively proved the harm.

While I am not trying to shill for artificial sweeteners (drink water, it's good!), this overstates the amount of uncertainty. Many studies have been done on aspartame and have concluded that it is a safe food additive. People have been guzzling aspartame in large quantities for thirty years now; if it had a large-scale effect that was worse than sugar, it would be pretty evident given all the attention that aspartame receives. What my cautious language is intended to couch is that you should not assume that aspartame has no health detriments; some studies have tried to link to aspartame to increased risk of cancer, while others have failed to replicate that result. But even if large-scale consumption of aspartame did lead to increased risk of cancer 30 years later, it would be less dangerous than the risk of diabetes (and its associated comorbidities) from the analogous sugar consumption over that 30 year period.

For me low sugar improves my mood but also reduces inflammation. I used to have a ton of problems with joint pain in elbows, shoulder, knees and wrists. Since I started reducing sugar a few years ago my joints are much better. Even my gums are way better. So is circulation in my legs. Now when I eat sugar, I get restless leg symptoms.

Looking at the nutrition labels of American foods can be pretty depressing. The amount of added sugar in almost any food is really high. Even pasta sauce and breads are full of sugar.

I'm the opposite.

Normally, I never have simple carbs. I'm also usually tired throughout the day, but then I started having sugary stuff, which suddenly energized me again. I've been having a candy bar every day, and I haven't felt day-tired in weeks.

Everyone is different, some people are good at processing sugar , others not so much. If I eat too much sugar i will get a crash in short order

Have you tried any other kind of carbohydrate other than sugar? Perhaps ask your doctor to test if you have mild hypoglycemia.

How long have you been on the sugary diet?

In my experience, sugar high is temporary, and the longer you persist with a sugary diet, the more adverse effects will show. I felt the same way with caffeine too.

Of course everyone is different, and what you are doing may just be right for your body.

Same here. I recently started sipping one to one and a half cans of soda during the work day, my work is half physical and on a PC, and my mood and energy levels are way more stable.

When I remember I substitute dried figs and prunes plus water with a dash of juice or weak cordial to flavour, works just as well and probably way better for nutrients and fibre.

> Also, it made me realize how much sugar/HFCS/etc. is in everything.

Incredibly, they even add sugar to many brands of salt.

I doubt the amount of dextrose (anti-caking agent) you consume with table salt could ever be nutritionally significant. Have you seen other sugars added to salt? I never have.

ah yeah your taste buds suddenly become a lot finer.. Someone said sugar is causing a little sensory overload making you blind.

IMO we're already near there about research, if you take the mean of publications, it points at low amount of simple non processed food, sports and other absolutely stupid things that modern life took away or made pricey (nature).

Also anecdotal but seen this confirmed by others: Cutting out seed oils and eating more saturated fat (butter) lessens sugar/carb cravings by a lot and makes cutting out both of those toxins easier.

https://www.reddit.com/r/StopEatingSeedOils/ https://www.reddit.com/r/SaturatedFat/

The process of making those seed oils is disgustingly industrial. Repeated high temperature exposure. And a lot of bottles sit in warm places, plant oils are easy to go rancid.

>I have a feeling the next few decades of research will make us realize how horrible our diets are.

That data is in already. We know it's terrible but how do you change? Sugar is tremendously addictive. If you quit pop and other super sugary things, you'll end up compensating and eating more sugar in a different way.

Even if you do a really good job and only allow sugar through say dairy. Which has lesser sugar and different kind. You'll end up eating cheese all day long.

Worse yet, we have had propaganda from the governments pushing pro-sugar anti-fat diets on us for longer than ive been alive.

Even worse yet, we only have about 40 years left of regular agriculture. http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2015/ph240/verso2/

If our intention is to keep the current diet going... we're going to need vertical factory farming or something.

The most unexpected effect of dropping sugars from my diet is the dramatic change (or sensitivity) to taste. Without sugars being predominant, now I savor many foods differently, especially fruit, and am enjoying it. Granted, it may simply be that hunger is seasoning the meal. However, the appreciation of flavor subtleties after discarding sugars is a pleasant and unexpected effect.

Adding another datapoint, I went Keto, no carbs/no sugar, grass fed meat and vegetables, eggs, some dairy. I have never felt better in my whole life. I wake up with a clear mind. Throw in some exercise, and I have started to naturally cut back on my caffeine habit, something I have used heavily for ten years. I just wake up and no longer feel like I need three cups of coffee.

did you notice improvements at non-Keto low carb? Did you have to strictly be in Ketosis and under the ~50g limit to get the benefits? Curious about your anecdotal experience with Keto

I havent been so rigorous with measuring my diet intake. I have just naturally noticed that the more steak and veggies I eat, the better I feel. My mind feels sharper, and I have more energy. I will add that I do think some keto foods, like cauliflower pizza, dont seem to be that healthy/seem to not have the same noticiable effects as grass fed steak. It could be in my head, but at work I am able to easily complete all my daily tasks in a few hours. Its really opening up my life. I started spending a ton of money on food.

Personally I try to do a “light” keto and it was better than keto. Whenever I can stick to it I feel much better.

The Fatburn Fix: Boost Energy, End Hunger, and Lose Weight by Using Body Fat for Fuel

by Catherine Shanahan

Was a great starting point and very informative. I agree with her and others that a keto all the time diet is not the best and more of a chore than a lifestyle.

Is it possible we are seeing it the wrong way, does anxio-depressive mood trigger you to go on sugar binge?

It’s important to point out that anxiety and depression aren’t one condition with one cause, they’re easy to diagnose symptom clusters. What helps some people with them likely won’t help everyone as there are many different underlying causes.

One cause has been suggested and researched that certain gut flora can manipulate your mood to cause you to feed them what they want. I.e. diet and mood can be codependent where the blame goes both ways.

Interesting, but even in the case of your example, one can interpret that lack of sugars can cause mood change, but not consumption of it as is claimed in the post.

To put it differently, causation is tricky to prove, presence of something causing an effect is quite different than absence of something causing it.

...in mice.

Edit: not to say I don't believe the effect might be present in humans but the significance of this study should not be overrated.

The observed effect is caused by changes to gut microbiota composition. While there are differences in our flora compared to mice, the reactions happening at that scale should be the same.

Whether those changes to human gut would cause these symptoms may be up for debate, but that does not make this irrelevant or useless in any way.

Grapes are poisonous to mice as well. Dose makes the poison is very relevant here.

Any diet change induces changes in gut microbiota. Eating tomatoes? Less Mucispirillum in rodents. Eating potato starch? More Rikenellaceae. Eating chicken? More Lactobacillus.

It's result of simple natural selection - species better at digesting your food will reproduce faster.

...however, does not mean it doesn't work similarly in hoomans.

Also doesn't mean that it does.

More importantly probably, this test was a standard diet vs. a "junk food" diet, so it makes many more changes vs. the control than just swapping sucrose for HFCS. It doesn't (and wasn't intended to) really reveal effects of HFCS specifically. Obviously you could look more at the specific differences between the diets used here in future research.

It is one thing to look for parallels in biochemistry, but I think it takes some healthy imagination to speculate on parallels in behavior and psychology. The findings describe:

"...enhanced anxiogenesis, increased behavioral despair, and impaired social interactions..."

My first question is then has anyone demonstrated that type II diabetics tend to be less depressed than the typical person?

To prove that type II diabetics tend to be less (or more) depressed, isn't that such a question to be studied on patients who do not take any medication?

The mechanism may not be related to glucose. The authors even suggest that it may be due to changes in the gut microbiome.

N=1 but... I was severely overweight for decades and went to a very low carb diet to lose weight. It worked. I lost a hundred pounds in 7 months and have stayed steady at my ideal weight now for over three years.

A very low carb diet also dramatically reduces HFCF as well as most highly processed foods and it definitely had a dramatic effect improving my emotional and mental state too, even though I wasn't expecting it to. It's really helped my stay low

>I lost a hundred pounds in 7 months

Am I right to assume you were working pretty closely with your doctor on this?

Yes, although at the time (> 3 yrs ago), my doctor did not approve of my very low carb (keto) approach as it was based on relatively new research that had come out in recent years. This was primarily because she simply wasn't familiar with it and it wasn't part of the HMO's recommended treatments for obesity.

I proceeded anyway and kept her updated. After she saw my remarkable results, she became much more interested in VLC approaches, although she still doesn't recommend them for most of her patients because she feels the dramatic shift and rigor required to be successful are beyond most people's ability to stick with for more than a few months.

I agree that some people find maintaining VLC long-term is too demanding. Although it hasn't been difficult for me to maintain, I may not be like most people.

That's nice to hear. Did you have regular blood work done? I'm only asking as I'm undergoing a bit of a shift in my own diet lately and am keenly interested in other peoples' experiences. Such drastic weight loss isn't in the cards for me, but it's interesting to hear about.

I did have blood work done fairly regularly as I was shedding weight so quickly. When I started I was on a variety of medications related to issues caused by my long-term obesity. The dramatic loss of body mass had dual impact both in reducing the dosages needed and in reducing (and eventually eliminating) the underlying health issue (e.g. T2D, high blood pressure, statins, etc).

"For CD [control diet], the source of carbohydrate included corn starch, sucrose and maltodextrin. In contrast, the HFCS-MFD contained HFCS as the primary source of carbohydrate at a level of 26% of the diet by weight. The HFCS-MFD also was comprised of 38.6% kcal from fat while the CD sourced 10.3% kcal from fat. The sole source of fat in the CD was soybean oil while the HFCS-MFD contained multiple sources of fat including palm oil, corn oil, cottonseed oil, lard, beef tallow, and anhydrous milk fat in addition to soybean oil. Moreover, HFCS-MFD contained reduced levels of fiber and increased levels of sodium and cholesterol."

This is not a study about (only) the effects of HFCS. Everything observed could equally be blamed palm oil, corn oil, cottonseed oil, lard, beef tallow, milk fat, fat in general, sodium, cholesterol, or lack of fiber. The only thing nothing can be blamed on is carbohydrates, including sucrose, because the control group received more of them. Oh, all all that in mice.

Frankly, I don't think anything can be learned from a study that varies so many variables at once.

Sugar and HFCS = bad.

What about carbs? It seems that we are throwing out the baby with the bath water. Does anyone have any good studies about carb consumption not focused on sugar?

Something like Keto diet (no carbs or sugar) vs Plant Based (lots of carbs, no refined sugar)

When you eat carbs, your body turns it into glucose, a sugar.

John Yudkin [0] makes it very clear dietary sugar is conpletely unnecessary for human nutrition. Talking about sucralose, lactose, dextrose, and especially fructose. Potatoes and pasta raise your blood sugar aplenty, and resistant starches feed your gut bacteria for free.

[0] https://www.amazon.com/Pure-White-Deadly-Sugar-Killing/dp/01...

Those who wish to live a long, healthy life should consider the Mediterranean diet. https://neurosciencenews.com/aging-blood-cognition-nutrients...

HFCS often makes me food-obsessed, hungrier, and care too much about minutiae.

I'll summarize most modern food research for you:

sugar bad

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