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ReactiveJelly

Re: vinyl records

Has anyone proven / disproven Benn Jordan's video about why vinyl is basically poisonous?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ2czFuIYmQ

I haven't watched it for a while but the summary is:

- Vinyl records outgas harmful things that you can detect with air quality meters. (VOCs I think)

- You can't dispose of them because they can't be recycled and aren't supposed to go in landfills. So buying new records from new bands violates the "reduce, reuse, recycle" principle

"It's just that it's _so_ lame and uncool to shit on vinyl..."

"This is just my objective opinion based on a whole lotta research... If you're an avid collector whose peepee hurts after watching this video, understand that my peepee hurts a whole lot more."

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I’m not sure about records, but it is well established that vinyl flooring emits various toxic compounds. Apparently it’s mostly other ingredients besides the PVC.

https://floortechie.com/is-vinyl-flooring-toxic/

Just search “vinyl off gassing”.

Here’s an EPA pdf purely about vinyl chloride: https://19january2017snapshot.epa.gov/sites/production/files...

This guy was unable to replicate his result and casts some aspersions on the accuracy of the metering technology, however he did find lead residue on one record: https://youtu.be/gx5B44YeRpY

Confirmed. Depending on pvc's point in it's lifecycle, it's either offgassing hydrogen chloride which turns into hydrochloric acid when inhaled, all the way to releasing dioxin when incinerated, and dioxin is considered the most congeners. You can get the same effect when burning your pcb. One of the deadliest fires in US history was the MGM Grand fire in Las Vegas and iirc all of the fatalities were due to the fumes from the burning pvc carpet and none were heat related.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MGM_Grand_fire

I will guess your average human emits more hazardous VOCs than a vinyl record.

I'd put this down to "someone thinks something is cool and fun! we have to show them how wrong they are!"

Have any evidence to back that claim up?

And even of its true, reducing VOCs still sounds like a positive goal

I'd recommend you read up a more about vinyl - you really aren't treating a very dangerous material seriously enough. PVCs are highly toxic, and at this point there are many regulations to ban their use in plumbing, consumer goods, and especially toys because they are so poisonous. Vinyl records are a hold-out. They leach high levels of phthalates into the air quite quickly which are highly toxic, far, far more toxic than the typical emissions of your average human.

http://www.safemarkets.org/toxic-chemicals-in-products/pvc/v...

Yes, but I’d be much more worried about vinyl flooring, trim, windows, and shower curtains than records.

Wise to not have any of the stuff anywhere. The off-gassing from records is nearly instantaneous and reaches measurable levels where it's dangerous within minutes - having the extra surface area for off-gassing from the grooves makes it much worse. A vinyl collection is certainly better than other vinyl things like you mentioned since an album won't off-gas much in its sleeve, but playing one will definitely do a bit of liver damage if you're near it.

> playing one will definitely do a bit of liver damage if you're near it

That sounds a bit exaggerated. There is evidence that occupational exposure to PVC compounds causes liver damage or cancer, and that’s mostly regarding workers in production lines. You’d have to be closely sniffing your record collection for hours on end to get the same effect.

If this was true you’d have entire generations from the 19x0s suffering from liver failure, as vinyl was the only media available, with billions of records sold.

I meant a bit in a diminutive sense, since the trace exposure to phthalates and dioxins which you will be exposed to when unsheathing a record will have lasting effects on your liver. They won't be severe, but the liver has to work extremely hard to cope with phthalates and it leaves a mark even if it's just a bit and leaves a trace mark. You're taking the least generous spirit possible while talking about phthalate exposure which has strong and lasting effects on the liver even in trace amounts: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6373551/

Quotes from the 1984 study:

> Livers from rats provided with diet containing 2% DEHP show an increased number of peroxisomes after a few days

> In spite of the lack of direct evidences […] the indications so far obtained are sufficiently unequivocal not to be neglected

> We have reasons to believe that accumulating toxicity is valid for humans

> which means that evaluation of chronic human toxicity cannot be performed until around 2000 to 2020!

From that to “vinyl records will damage your liver” seems like a huge jump.

I’m sure vinyl records off gas, but I’m extremely dubious about the liver damage you propose. With all substances the poison is in the dose; you’d need a huge vinyl collection to match the amount of vinyl typical in a typical home with a shower curtain and vinyl windows, let alone one that uses vinyl flooring.

You're not going to die or feel any ill effects from a brief exposure to the phthalates and dioxins released by vinyl, but those phthalates and dioxins both hit the liver very hard while dioxins are carcinogens even in trace amounts. It would be wise to avoid even brief contact:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6373551/

> I will guess your average human emits more hazardous VOCs than a vinyl record.

As I recall, when Benn did the test, putting the record back in its sleeve caused the air quality to go back to normal.

So whatever VOCs he is emitting, I don't think his meter picked them up.

> I'd put this down to "someone thinks something is cool and fun! we have to show them how wrong they are!"

Re-check the part about "how much my peepee hurts". I really want to like vinyls, but I'm never going to buy one if they're basically Forever Chemicals that got grandfathered in by being part of pop culture decades ago. And Benn says in the video that he could stand to make a lot of money if he sold out and had vinyls of his work manufactured.

But was "normal" based on an earlier meter reading with him in the room? Or a proven baseline that applies in general?

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