Europe's hottest startup capitals | Hacker News Reader

Europe's hottest startup capitals

wired.co.uk

64 pointsmaris78 comments

Poorly researched filler piece. For example, the article on Barcelona failed to mention ANY of the truly interesting startups, like Privalia, ExperienceOn, Letsbonus, Groupalia, and all the companies seeded by Grupo Intercom.

These articles are of very unequal depth. 2 pages for Paris, and only a list of startups for Amsterdam. Not even a mention of recentlylaunched new york times-featured appsterdam: http://www.nytimes.com/external/venturebeat/2011/06/27/27ven...

Nice to read about less popular cities though (Tallinn, Helsinki).

The reason for the unequal depth is that the article was originally written for the print magazine - if you see the design of the magazine, you will see that they have a few featured cities with longer articles and others in brief. Obviously limited on page count.

I was looking into moving to Tallinn as an expat. This just sealed the deal. Any Estonian hackers on here?

i moved from Tallinn last year :) many positive things can be said about this place, but having a snow (mostly dirty) for about 7..8 months a year, and seeing this mess made me move: http://public.fotki.com/dmitri_don/tallinn-2011/

You're the first guy I read who addresses negative points of Tallinn, thanks!

I knew about the snow, but not about the derelict state of some of the surroundings. However, isn't it normal for a reasonably large city to have vandalized parts like that? I'm sure you could find similar scenes in cities like Paris, Brussels or Berlin.

If you have any other resources about Tallinn (biased or not ;-) ) I'd love to take a gander, it's actually quite hard to find good intel about it. I noticed you're Canadian - did you use a guidebook when you first arrived? I'm wondering which one I should get.

The pictures aren't representative of Tallinn as a whole, certainly not the central parts, but it is probably fair to say that it is more run-down in parts than similar cities in wealthier countries. (Remember that Estonia isn't rich -- GDP per capita is one third that of Belgium, for example.) How much you see of this obviously depends on where you live and where you go.

Best single Tallinn resource is probably In Your Pocket: http://www.inyourpocket.com/estonia/tallinn

You can pick this up cheaply in the city, download the pdf from their site for free, or get their iPhone app (also free).

Also new and interesting-looking is http://www.likealocalguide.com/tallinn

There is no great definitive online expat forum.

Also: when looking up stuff online, learn to love Chrome's built-in translation functions, and remember that it (and Google Translate) unfortunately does a better job with Russian than it does Estonian.

Awesome, thanks!

Same as any city. New York for example is so much dirtier and uglier than Tallinn, would never imagine living there.

As for snow, 7-8 months is exaggerating, if not pure lying :) It's true, that the weather is not African, then again it is really varied and one of the few places where we do have 4 really distinct seasons.

7-8 months is certainly exaggerating, but 5 months is still a pretty long time to have snow on the ground.

At least the snow is white for most of this time (rather than dirty/sooty brown/grey as in many other cities), and it's less windy and humid than I'm used to in the winter (so it doesn't feel as cold as the thermometer says).

i am! in tallinn during the summer, in the UK during uni.

Sweet, unfortunately I'll arrive somewhere in the fall :)

ah, well, if you happen to arrive before the 18th of september, let me know!

You're welcome! Have a look at what we do on our startup scene: http://garage48.org/ (events + startup co-working hub) http://startupleadersclub.com/ https://www.facebook.com/occtallinn

Awesome that you're on here! Garage48 was already on top of my "Tallin To Do" list for once I'm there :) I'll probably see you around then.

Great, feel free to contact us if you need any help or want to meet up with local tech people. Visiting our hub office is always fun as well.

Cool, will do, thanks!

Sounds interesting!

I'm unable to find a more subtle way to ask this, so I'll be blunt. (pardon! :)

How is the English literacy in Estonia and in Tallinn in particular? Of course, if someone expects to live somewhere s/he should be expected to learn the local language and customs, but if you're there for only a month or two then it's challenging.

You'll be fine in English in Tallinn as you would in any other Nordic capital. Fluent younger/tech circles, ok to get by anywhere from food stores to hospitals.

Tänan!

Any recommended local sites for gauging rent prices? What's the common website in Estonia for apartment rentals?

(I did look in Google, but in my experience it's best to ask a local for the defacto leader in rentals)

http://city24.ee/ and http://www.kv.ee/

dittoing these sites.

If the grand-parent wants to be central, try Vanalinn (the old town), Kesklinn (city centre), and Kadriorg.

Also remember that many buildings don't have elevators.

Thanks!

Actually that's a very good question that I need to add to my list ("what's considered city center?").

I've lived in Tallinn for most of my life.

Do you like it?

Throwing in a Swiss boot - http://startupchart.ch/ - of course Switzerland is a country, not a capital. But then so is Sweden...

Lisbon, the West Coast of Europe.

Better beaches, better food and better wines than the other West Coast.

Plus: better trams and a better bridge.

Perfect geographic location, halfway between Europe and US.

-- MV

http://www.crowdcube.com/ looks interesting for the UK: "equity-based crowdfunding". However, it doesn't look like there is a great deal of activity.

One of the great things in the article is choosing both Helsinki and Tallinn, neighboring cities with just 50 miles apart. That region is really buzzing with startup activity.

Tallinn and Helsinki truly booming! Garage48 Tartu (http://garage48.org/events) is on next weekend and after that Steve Blank is visiting Finland for a week (www.steveblank.fi). Truly great stuff happening here!

I wish there was more depth to these articles - it could have been a very interesting read.

London?

Probably omitted on purpose for reasons unknown.

Likely because its a UK website - showing cities on mainland Europe.

...so it's "top 10 locations I'd rather be right now"?

It's quite cold in London at the moment (17°C).

Did you read the article? It starts with "London's startup scene is booming -- you need only read Wired to see that. But what are Europe's other hot digital cities -- and which are the companies and founders to watch?" - so it's about what else besides London there is. Not downplaying London at all.

Dublin?

> Europe's hottest startup capitals: Sweden

Come and visit the wonderful town of Sweden ...

That town has some really impressive parks!

An error in the title but the article itself actually discusses Stockholm.

Well, Barcelona is not the capital of Spain..

It's the capital of Catalonia, who many people in Spain would not mind to see as an independent republic :)

> Europe's hottest startup capitals: Moscow

> Europe's hottest startup capitals: Tel Aviv

> Europe's hottest startup capitals: Bangalore

(Ok I made the last one up)

common error. Everybody knows Ikea is the capital of Sweden where they make the best wines.

Someone should let Wired know that Tel Aviv is as European as Damascus and Beirut.

And that Sweden isn't a city (so it can't be a European capital.)

And www.dealdash.com, which is listed under Helsinki, is located in California, USA. However they seem to have a Finnish developer (are you Juha on HN?).

Due in part to cultural differences with the rest of the middle east, Israel is often classed as closer to europe. (As is Turkey as well)

At least Israel is a recurring participant at the european song contest[1]. This might have influenced wired's judgement profoundly.

[1] http://www.eurovision.tv/page/dusseldorf-2011/about/shows/pa...

They also are a member of the Union of European Football Associations, take part in European championships, play in the Europa cups, etc.

I think the situation is the same in other sports such as basketball.

Also, not the capital of Israel. (A main city, sure)

Israel is not in Europe. Why is it on the list?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurovision_Song_Contest

Please stop using that kitsch abomination known as eurovision for reference. Use UEFA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA

It's culturally closer to Europe than to its Muslim neighbors. Israel competes in the Eurovision song contest and in the European soccer confederation.

If you are going to use that standard then the UK is in North America as it's culturally closer to US/Canada than France/Germany.

That is a matter of opinion!

True, that's why the article ommited the UK. (and UK startups are rarely labeled 'european')

I know British people who don't think the UK is part of Europe. British discourse often refers to "the continent" as something distinct from Britain.

The reason Israel competes in European football instead of the regional equivalent is to avoid matches such as Israel vs. Syria and Israel vs. Iran.

They can still play against Germany though.

Yes, because of the long-standing occupation of the Palestinian territories, the lack of rights afforded to the Palestinian Arabs living there and the ever growing Israeli settlements in and around these Palestinian communities, Israel isn't very welcomed by its other Arab nations.

Except when it comes to its apartheid-like policies in the West Bank, but then again formally Apartheid South Africa was long accepted as part of the West too...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analog...

From the HN guidelines:

Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them.

Geography is a cultural and political construct.

Why Morocco considered East, while Greece West? Geographically Morocco is 2500km to the west from Greece, culturally Morocco is predominantly Muslim, while Greece Christian.

Also geographically almost whole Republic of Azerbaijan, parts of Russia, Turkey and Kazakhstan are considered in Europe.

The Kazakhstan case is funny, considering it's bordering China.

You're really pushing it if you're classing Moscow and Tel Aviv as "European" cities...

Say what? Moscow is most definitely European. It's located something like 850 miles west of the Urals.

So what continent do you think Moscow is in?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe

Israel is thought of European because its football team is aligned with UEFA (Union of European Football Associations) and also it participates in the Eurovision song contest, so a lot of Europeans, myself included, definitely see Israel as quasi-European

Israel is fairly European in a lot of aspects except when it comes to its occupation of the Palestinian territories and its denial of rights to the inhabitants of those territories. Israel's behavior with regards to the West Bank is so bad that it being referred to more and more as an apartheid situation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analog...

Apartheid was invented by British colonialism.

The current deadlock in Israel is also British colonial inheritance.

That's sums up any analogies between South Africa and Israel.

This is the third time I've seen you try and start a flamewar over Israel. Please knock that shit off.

I made three posts in quick succession with regards to Israel, each time I kept it short and sweet and what I said was directly relevant to the posts I was responding to.

#1. Two postings I responded where saying in effect that culturally Israel is similar to Europe, one of them was yours. I said that is true, except when it comes to its occupation. With regards to the occupation, its is related human rights issues, Israel is very unlike modern Europe. That is a completely true observation and it was appropriate in the context I posted it.

#2. A third response was with regards to someone else saying that Israel played in the European league because it wanted to avoid matches with Syria and Iran, but the actual reason is that Israel viewed very negatively by the majority of its neighbors in the Arab world primarily because of its treatment of the Palestinians in the occupied territories. It isn't just about Syria and Iran, but rather about Jordan, Egypt and basically every other state in the region. Again that is a completely true observation and appropriate in the context.

As far as human rights go, I think you've forgotten that Yugoslavia is part of Europe. There are also parallels with Northern Ireland.

And as far as Israel's relations with the Arab countries, it has more to do with anti-Semitism. Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is no worse--and in many respects better--than that of Jordan and Egypt.

EDIT: Before you think of responding to this and disagreeing with me, keep in mind--this is exactly how every Israel flamewar everywhere else on the internet ever starts.

We're all decently informed people here, well aware of the situation in the Middle East. It's sufficient to point out that Israel maintains relationships with European countries due to its strained relations with its Arab neighbors. It does no good to drag out your own opinions of who is in the right and who is in the wrong. Saying "Israel doesn't get along with other countries in the Middle East so they play football matches against European countries" makes a valid point. Saying "Israel doesn't get along with other countries in the Middle East because Israel practices apartheid", or for that matter saying "Israel doesn't get along with other countries in the Middle East because the Arabs are anti-Semitic zealots" is flamebait and doesn't belong on Hacker News.

You just detailed in your response why I am wrong and you are right and then you finish it off saying that if I do something similar but with opinions that differ from yours, I will be breaking the rules. It is really hard to know how to respond to a comment like that except to back away slowly.

Hm, that's not what I meant, but I can see why you read it that way. I'm sorry for being unclear. Hopefully I can clarify what I meant a little.

I don't think your claims about Israel are helpful for two reasons.

One is because neither of your claims are statements of fact. Your first claim was:

With regards to the occupation, its is related human rights issues, Israel is very unlike modern Europe.

First, it's a matter of opinion--and rather heated debate--that Israel is responsible for any human rights issues related to the Palestinians. Some would say that Israel is only doing what they need to in order to defend themselves. Secondly, modern Europe has faced several human rights issues of its own. There was considerable violence against civilians during the dissolution of Yugoslavia, as well as human rights issues in Northern Ireland during the Troubles. Granting for the sake of argument that Israel has human rights issues, they're not unlike Europe in that respect.

Your second claim was:

Israel viewed very negatively by the majority of its neighbors in the Arab world primarily because of its treatment of the Palestinians in the occupied territories

This is speculative, and again there is another side to the story. Israel's Arab neighbors invaded or planned to invade Israel on two separate occasions before Israel even occupied the Palestinian territories. One of the reasons Israel even occupies those territories--which used to belong to Jordan and Egypt--is because Jordan and Egypt have refused to take the territories back.

So, the first reason your claims aren't helpful is because both of your claims are highly controversial claims, far from the "true observations" you claim them to be. The second reason your claims aren't helpful is because a lot of people (yourself included, by all appearances) have very strong emotions about the situation in Israel and the occupied territories, and bringing up these controversies only conjures up all kinds of strong emotions and threatens to start irrelevant, tangential arguments. It's bad form to start arguments about Israel in unrelated threads for the same reason it's bad form to compare people to the Nazis. Or, as the guidelines say,

Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them.

Just to be clear, I'm purposely not responding to the content of your message.

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