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Comment by sufehmi | Hacker News Reader

Another thing I only noticed when I visited Amsterdam - it's scary for pedestrians.

I love cycling, been cycling for 25+ years, including commuting to my office via (beautiful) cycling path at Birmingham canals.

But when I visited Amsterdam, of course I don't have my bike there, so I went anywhere using Uber, and walking around - and that's when I noticed that:

It's really scary to be a pedestrian in Amsterdam.

In a lot of places, the cyclist path is on the same surface with the pedestrian path. Of course it's separated with lanes (read: paint job on the surface) - but we are on the same surface, next to another.

Several times I was almost hit by the cyclists, I'm pretty sure I was on my / pedestrian's path, but I almost got hit anyway. A lot of the cyclists are cycling in a very high speed.

That was a new feeling & experience for me, and I didn't like it.

I hope the situation will become better for the pedestrians.

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Walking in Amsterdam isn't my favorite; as you have alluded to the cyclists there have long since grown tired of stoned tourists wandering into the bike lane and don't yield in the same way as in other cities. But compared to the US, where every street crossing requires dashing across 4-8 lanes of traffic in the 20 seconds allotted to me by the Car Gods... there is no comparison in terms of subjective or objective danger.

I've been there and don't remember that. But I did hear this complaint about other cities and it always struck me as odd. People have no issues standing on the sidewalk as cars whiz around them and they feel safe. A bike going very fast in its own lane next to you is most of the time slower than a car and about 100 times lighter. And thus at least so much less dangerous. People have a right to feel whatever they want, but the numbers show it's a lot safer to be a pedestrian in a bike friendly city than a car friendly city.

I think the curb makes a big difference.

In perception, maybe. A curb doesn't slow a car down enough to not end your life, and it's much easier to do even for a driver trying to stay in their lane.

I disagree. Tactile barriers like curbs and even rumble strips provide real security because they are such effective signals to both sides. Pedestrians would be much more afraid if cars only had to stay in painted lines and people had to walk right beside them.

At this point it's no longer particularly newsworthy to write a car lost control and leveled three people on a bus stop. It happens all the time, it even happened on the bus stop I frequently used 20 years ago.

And bike lanes are already segregated with at least paint so that's already a signal. People just need to get used to it, which is hard initially when all you know is cars and walking.

Drivers intentionally cross plainted lines they are not supposed to cross all the time. Drivers rarely cross curbs intensionally.

SF for example is full of solid white lines. The law says solid white lines are supposed to be treated the same as concrete barriers. No crossing period. Yet people cross them all the time with impunity. If they were actually curbs people would only rarely cross them accidentally

It's easy to stay on the right side of a curb as a pedestrian, compared to looking for floor markings, traffic signs etc.

As a cyclist, it's easy and essential to stay on the right side. Accidentally not noticing the curb will result in a crash or near one.

Modern kerbs are sloped. Accidentally not noticing the kerb will not make you crash. (See the picture about ⅓ down on https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2016/02/23/goes-cycling-c...)

Research shows sloped or even leveled kerbs don’t seem to lead to problems (https://journals.open.tudelft.nl/ejtir/article/view/3254)

I think it's more that we grew up with cars and accepted the danger. The same way we are no longer scrubbing our hands as we did early in the pandemic.

Sadly it seems like a sizable amount of the population plans to keep up the "temporary" measures forever. I can only assume it's tribally motivated at this point where it's simply not rational anymore for vaccinated people who account for <1% of deaths to go around in space suits staying six feet away from everyone and continuing to go overboard with sanitization. I predict they'll still be doing this in five years and still try to shame the rest of us who moved on.

For me it's having been hit several times by cyclists on shared paths, and never having been hit by a car.

(well, I was once hit by a car, but I was on a bike so....)

Unless you're doing road work without signs that sounds like too many times to be hit by moving things for a lifetime.

> I hope the situation will become better for the pedestrians.

It will not. In the NYC metro area (including Northern NJ), pedestrians are constantly in danger of being hit by both cyclists and people on powered bicycles (which are motorcycles for all practical purposes).

I have seen these people hit people and on one occasion one of them kicked a stroller. If anyone says anything, they face further harassment: In one instance, one rider lifted her bicycle and hit me and left.

Delivery drivers tend to be better than others on the sidewalk, but then you watch them go the wrong way at 30 MPH with the giant battery pack and you feel for the driver who might have a close encounter or worse.

Sidewalks are for pedestrians.

PS: I notice that this thread seems to be full of people who claim standing on the sidewalk watching cars whizz by is scary. It isn't. Cars don't routinely jump the curb, cars don't routinely drive on sidewalks, most drivers are quick to yield to pedestrians. On the other hand, even if you are crossing at the walk sign, there will be at least four bike riders trying to run the red light through a hundred pedestrians at 42nd & 8th.

The problem isn’t the cyclists or the pedestrians, it’s that they are both combined to less than 2m of space on the side of the road, the rest being reserved for the almighty automobile.

Cars routinely kill people unlike bicycles.

The only reason you’re more afraid of bikes than cars is because you’re socialized to accept cars.

I've personally been hit by more bikes than cars, even suffering long-term injury in once case.

Well, that’s not surprising.

Bike lanes usually adjoin sidewalks, as opposed to car lanes, which usually have some buffer.

But also because if you were hit by a car the likelihood of you being around to write a comment about it would be extremely low.

When cities don’t prioritize dedicated bike infrastructure, the sidewalk is the de-facto bike lane. Sure, cyclists are supposed to ride in traffic but that’s also super dangerous in a city like NYC.

The failure here is on the part of city planners, not the cyclists. And enforcing traffic laws against an even moderately skilled cyclist is difficult: I remember easily outrunning the bike cops when I was younger because I was simply in much better shape than them and could handle a bike a lot better in an urban environment.

> The failure here is on the part of city planners

Yeah, no, when there is a perfectly fine one way road with enough space plus a speed limit of 25 mph, having to constantly be aware of people on bicycles come at you from behind or around corners at full speed is the fault of the person who chooses to do that.

The fact that this happens every day, multiple times is because 1) the targets (e.g., moms with a stroller) are powerless in a one-on-one confrontation with these bullies; 2) the police will never enforce existing laws.

In Denmark and the Netherlands, at least when I got to bike in those places, the police would routinely ticket bicyclists. I know, I got tickets and paid fines.

You’re seriously mistaken if you think a one way road with a 25mph speed limit is “perfectly fine”.

In countries with decent infrastructure you don’t need to look out for bicyclists “coming from behind”.

I also find it interesting that the guy protected by a ton of steel is afraid of 200 pounds of mostly flesh coming from behind on a one way road and is unable to imagine how that 180 pounds of flesh on 20 pounds of metal might feel about the ton of steel coming from behind them on that “perfectly fine” 25 mph one way road.

> the guy protected by a ton of steel is afraid

This is either an example of a perfect propagandist misdirection or the best illustration of the blind spot people on bicycles and powered-bicycles have when it comes to pedestrians.

I was referring to pedestrians having to constantly have 360 degrees situational awareness because of faster traveling bicycles presenting a danger to them, to their babies or toddlers etc. The person who's riding full speed on sidewalks is already signaling the fact that they are a bully. All a parent pushing a stroller or walking their toddler can do is to try to avoid being slammed into at full speed.

As for the person driving a car, the fact is bicyclists rarely consider the momentum of those vehicles when they decide to run a red light and ram through a bunch of pedestrians crossing the street and zip through cross-traffic in through daredevil fashion. 99/100 that works out not because the bicyclist is not a complete nitwit but because everyone else is constantly looking out for them.

Lol what lies. Pedestrians don’t need to have 360 degree awareness of bikes relative to cars because they are afraid of what bikes might do to them. There has been 1 pedestrian killed by a bike in NYC over the past decade. Whereas cars kill a pedestrian nearly every other day in NYC.

Rather, pedestrians pretend to be ok with cars because they’re socialized to believe car lanes belong to cars so if they get run over to death by them (which they do all the time) they blame it on the pedestrian, whereas if they receive even the slightest scratch from a bike while stepping onto the bike lane, they blame it on the biker.

And that’s before considering the fact that bike lanes in MUC are right along the sidewalks, whereas car lanes have several buffers between them and the sidewalks.

There are no trillion dollar bike companies telling pedestrians that they are at fault for any accident and that they are responsible for not walking near bikes. There are no bike companies that invented a new crime out of whole cloth (jaywalking) that tells people that if they enter 80% of the public street space and get killed by a bike, they are legally responsible (jaywalking).

How many tickets do you think have been given for “jaywalking” on a bike lane.

The reality is your entire complaint confuses the actual solution for pedestrians, which is more bike lanes (bike lanes save pedestrian lives since they create a buffer between sidewalks and car lanes through the bike lane, and I don’t think there’s been a bike lane death of a pedestrian in the US in the last decade at least), with your socialization which basically says cars own the road and any injury caused by a car is the pedestrians responsibility, whereas bicyclists are interlopers and any injuries by them, no matter how minor, is far worse than a car killing a pedestrian.

I'm from the Netherlands originally, but also lived and cycled in England, Ireland, and New Zealand.

All the cities I lived in had comparatively decent cycling infrastructure, far from what it's like in NL, but still decent enough.

Now, I've never been to NYC but the problem there was that some people seem to hate cyclists no matter what you do. You can behave 100% correct and with care but you will still get people who feel you ought not to be on the road at all and will still try and drive you off the road no matter what you do, or they will pass you as close as possible just to annoy you, or where there's really no space at all. I've had people stop their cars just to hurl abuse at me, God know why. Things like that.

99.9% of drivers can be perfectly fine and just 0.1% are these kind of people, then you're going to run in to one of them every few days or weeks depending on how much you cycle, simple because you'll easily encounter over a hundred cars in a journey (And in reality, it seems to be far more than 0.1% unfortunately).

It's this kind of aggression, harassment, and violent assault that makes cyclists cycle on pavements. No matter what you do you're going to get shit, and at least on the pavement it's not dangerous.

Hell, on multiple occasions I've received shit for cycling on the cycle path.

You need to be an exceptionally cheerful and positive person to not become somewhat jaded by all of this.

Or let me put it in this way: if a large group of normal people are doing something wrong while performing in just one activity, then there's probably something wrong with the system surrounding that activity and not all of those people.

"Sidewalks are for pedestrians."

Of course they are. If you cycle on them in the Netherlands, you'll get yelled at very fast. I don't think anyone anywhere claims that people should cycle on sidewalks. Still, in many bicycle-hostile areas, cyclists choose to do that over, you know, dying - but that doesn't take away from the fact that it's dangerous to cycle on sidewalks.

I lived in Amsterdam for 5 years. I'm not entirely sure what your talking about with the pedestrian path being beside the cycle lane. They are normally on two different levels, there is a curb. I also never found it that dangerous to be a pedestrian. I have seen many many tourists walk in the cycle lanes though, or step into them without looking, and almost get hit. Honestly to me it kinda sounds like you were walking in the bike lane. I think there is some learning curve in getting used to all of the bikes around, but it really isn't dangerous. Also I can confirm that in the 5 years I lived there I was never hit by a cyclist. however when a family member came to visit, they walked right out into a bike lane without looking and almost did get hit.

Exactly.

Why didn't they stepped unknowingly into car's lane - but did so into bike's lane?

It's all in the design.

I've lived in Amsterdam for 20 years now and I don't know a single street outside of the canals where the pedestrian path is on the same level as the bike lane. Apart from the color distinction, the pedestrian path is also raised from the street level practically everywhere except for the canals where the border is marked by white lines and bollards every couple meters.

i lived in Amsterdam for 3 days and noticed places where they are on the same level. Are you sure you were paying attention?

Isn't it likely your parent has seen a lot more than you? Were you along a canal? Or perhaps those places you noticed were exceptional in the extreme. Presumably you wouldn't really know after such a short stay.

Canals in Amsterdam aren't extreme or rare.

Exactly.

Being new to the place, we tend to notice things that other people already took for granted.

Tourists routinely confuse those canal bike lanes for sidewalks and then complain about feeling unsafe around bikes in Amsterdam.

My first time in Amsterdam I was terribly confused by the bike lanes. We’d never seen an entirely separate and dedicated bike lane like that so we walked in it. It was a Sunday morning so fortunately there wasn’t much traffic but eventually an exasperated local on his bike stopped us and explained that we were basically waltzing around in the middle of the road and could we please stop. He was perfectly polite and his information was quite helpful but I got the sense he had given the same lecture many times before.

Unless someone explains it to you, though, I’m not really sure how anyone could be expected to know?

Something about all those bikes whizzing right by you while there is a perfectly empty sidewalk right next to you?

If the concept is completely unknown to you, then I can imagine just not realizing it.

My British girlfriend once unplugged my alarm clock because she thought there was no way to use the power plug above that otherwise, my alarm plug was "blocking" that one. I just reversed the socket and put it back in. She felt stupid, but since British plugs can be put in one way only I can understand simply not thinking of that.

Well there weren’t many bikes whizzing by and the sidewalks were quite “full” from cafe seating and postcard displays and the like. It wasn’t really a conscious “decision” to walk in the bike path it just sort of seemed natural?

Thanks for describing the exact areas where I've seen this problem. The canals being what they are, there probably isn't much that can be done.

My feelings of big cities:

NYC - cars, bikes and pedestrians all feel like they are the most important.

Paris - there are no rules, and someone will steal your bike anyway.

Amsterdam - bikes are on top and know it, cars and pedestrians can fight for the scraps.

Germany - cars are king. Some pedestrian crossings you even have to wait two lights to make it all the way across the road.

Germany isn't a big city afaik, did you mean Berlin?

Oof yes, was thinking of Berlin and Munich.

>Paris - there are no rules, and someone will steal your bike anyway.

I'm still amazed about the roundabout around Arc de Triomphe.

I remember watching tourists try to cross it with their children, not realizing that they are meant to cross underground (in fairness, the signage was very hard to find even for those of us who knew there was an underground crossing).

Note that the "cycling heaven" the title refers to is the Netherlands in general. The Amsterdam city centre is probably one of the worst cycling experiences in the Netherlands due to the sheer number of people needing to share the limited space. Still vastly preferable over having all those people use cars though, and I'm sure outside of the centre it's much better.

This is the first comment with an explanation that makes actual sense.

Thank you.

I've lived in Amsterdam for 2 years now, and whilst the "fear" of the cyclists has long worn off, there is still considerable inconvenience as a pedestrian. Many busy areas have a pavement only wide enough for 1 or 2 people at a time, meaning you constantly have to walk in the road and compete with the cars and bikes. It can be really quite unpleasant.

That being said in order to maintain the beautiful traditional architecture and layout of the city centre sacrifices must be made, and as a cyclist I also feel the pain of being blocked by pedestrians. Everyone suffers a little bit, which from what I've heard seems to be a dominant Dutch political philosophy reflected in its coalition governments.

Another thing I only noticed when I visited Amsterdam - it's scary for pedestrians.

Compared to what? Los Angeles? Cairo?

Less sarcastically: I get your point, but it's a tradeoff. It's a beautifully car-free (and just plain beautiful and eminently livable) city otherwise. Yes, you do have to be careful about the bikes (as one must with cars, buses, and trucks, motorbikes and scooters just about anywhere else) -- but wherever you go, you pick your battles.

Ha, well pick your battle with an angry car driver and he'll probably shout, gesticulate and then drive away. Do the same with an angry cyclist and the outcome can be somewhat more severe.

Or if you’re in the US the car driver will pull out a gun and shoot you.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/disconcerting-rise-road-rage-shoot...

> So far this year, as of June 7, a person has been killed or injured in a suspected road rage shooting on average every 18 hours in the United States

Luckilly, in the UK, gun ownership is rare. I will take note and adjust my expectations next time I'm the US.

I find traffic in LA is extremely chilled. For example, on the smaller roads turning cars yield to pedestrians always (at least in the more affluent areas). This is pretty unique. I've lived in big cities in four different countries and LA traffic is the most relaxed i've found anywhere.

Well, they know they're not getting anywhere anytime soon, so why rush? :)

Given that the carless are second-class citizens in LA -- and that this is one of the most obvious and ever-present facts of life in basically every city that made the ill-fated decision to follow the Los Angeles development "model" --

The first-class citizens might as well take pity on them, after all.

As somebody who's been hit a few times by cyclists, one time suffering long-term injury to my elbow, I feel like I've grown pretty attuned to getting out of their way. Yet in Amsterdam I kept getting belled, yelled at, or pushed. The busier parts of Amsterdam along people's commute are really quite scary as a pedestrian, there's often not enough room for 2 people to comfortable stand side-by-side without getting a bell or a curse from overpacked bikes on similarly narrow bike lanes bleeding out from their designated lanes. In some of the narrower streets there often isn't even place for pedestrians to walk separated from cars and bikes, but bikes will act as if the entire area is theres.

After a few days there I finally started to get the system. Because some areas have sidewalks and bike lanes at the same level, I noticed cyclists will often use the sidewalks to pass slower bikes. I realized then that just like in any other big city, you have to stand up for yourself and when a cyclist is on a pedestrian right-of-way and decides to get up in your face, you're completely within your rights to push back and kindly show them the edges of the bike lane they've left. It reminded me a bit of figuring out how to get around NYC.

Outside of the cramped shared spaces in Amsterdam the aggression levels are understandably much lower and the separation between bikes and pedestrians is more manageable, and I never once had an issue elsewhere in the Netherlands.

> As somebody who's been hit a few times by cyclists, one time suffering long-term injury to my elbow, I feel like I've grown pretty attuned to getting out of their way

I feel like getting hit by cyclists a few times does not mean you're more attuned to getting out of their way, but rather attuned to either walking in bike-lanes or just totally not paying attention. Or unlucky. Normally I'd say just unlucky, but....

I don't think the attitude of "you're completely within your rights to push back and kindly show them the edges of the bike lane" shows a winning strategy for "getting out of their way".

The reality is that we're all travelers within the cities we live in and visit, we all have places we want to get, and most of us do not want to interfere with each other negatively. "pushing back" is not the way you cultivate that, and not what most pedestrians or cyclists expect.

The mistake you are making is the same one the cyclists are making, thinking that everywhere is a cycling lane, even when it's not.

"I noticed cyclists will often use the sidewalks to pass slower bikes"

Yup, THIS. Right. there.

I live in Amsterdam coming from Italy and have lived also in states. I have the opposite experience. Roads in the center are busy but everybody rides at slow speeds even cars and small motorcycles. They all share the canal roads with pedestrians and everyone is careful about each other.

This is also the main thing other countries don’t realize. Bikes here are slow. They’re not meant to be performant. They’re meant to bring you slowly (but steadily) from A to B.

Also I much prefer a busy road full of cyclist with little sidewalk, than a busy road full of cars with dedicate sidewalk. All the noise and smog makes the walking plain terrible and borderline unhealthy.

It is the same in London. The dedicated bike lanes contain legions of fast moving cyclists.

The difference between cars is that cyclists - as a general rule - totally ignore any rules. Pedestrian crossing? Pah! Rules are for others! Instead scream obscenities at the pedestrian as you weave past and around them (at <10cm distance) for having the temerity of slowing you down when they are legitimately crossing the cycle path. A cyclist was recently prosecuted in London for killing a pedestrian when they drove into them at high speed after shouting at them to get out of the way failed to work... There must be loads of other non-fatal collisions that don't make the news

TL;Dr - During in rush hour it can be hard to cross the cycle lanes, but roads are fine. Cars generally do not try to "go around you" at very close distance when you are a pedestrian, but cyclists do.

Your anecdote goes against pretty much every study that shows motorists break the rules far more commonly than cyclists - in addition to the fact they kill multiple people every day.

Which studies? You say "the rules" - I suspect it varies a lot by rule. Speeding? Yep, drivers are going to slip above the limit unless they're very careful, whereas you have to be a very capable athlete to do that as a cyclist. Running a red light or going on the pavement? I'm pretty sure cyclists break these far more often.

I don't understand your point, of course different road users break different rules, they have different rules. You can't speed on a bicycle as there's no requirement for a speedometer. Motorists are less likely to be fined for driving without lights are they're always present and largely automatic, you can't illegally park your bicycle on the pavement in London as it doesn't apply.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/05/10/cyclists...

https://whyy.org/articles/cyclists-violate-traffic-law-no-mo...

Thanks for the links. My point was that studies wouldn't invalidate mattlondon's observation that cyclists more often break laws that affect pedestrians. The studies you referenced do seem refute his claim "cyclists - as a general rule - totally ignore any rules" - presumably the non-aggressive majority aren't catching his attention.

I’d still much rather share the road with cycles than cars

For sure, and I'd much rather share the 'road' with horses, mules and goats rather than cars or cycles. :-D

The pollution from horses, mules and goats is pretty gross though.

But but it's all 100% organic !!

Pedestrians in Amsterdam (especially the tourists) feel like they own the street and can just step every which way without looking first.

As a cyclist just trying to get from point A to B at my default speed of 20km/h it’s immensely annoying when one of them suddenly turns onto the street forcing me to brake like a madman (and then build up all that speed again).

Definitely not me.

Is there any other metric where people suggest that the place that has an order of magnitude lower deaths is more unsafe?

NL has about 2.6 pedestrian deaths per million compared to the US’s 19 or so (which must have only gone up since the pandemic).

And this is not even adjusting for the significantly greater walking that’s done in the NL.

That wasn’t at all my experience when I visited. Yes, some paths in the tourist area were crowded, but at no time did I feel unsafe. Add in the street car/trolley and easy ability to cycle out of the tourist district and it was pretty awesome, IMO.

Have you tried walking in Birmingham? Some of the "cycle lanes" here are just a pavement with a sign. There is no separation from pedestrians. And the majority of cyclists (especially Just Eat delivery riders) seem to think it is legal to ride on every pavement. Amsterdam is way better.

....and that's why I wrote "Birmingham canals"

Have you tried it? They're truly a wonderful place for cyclists.

(well at least back in 2001, no idea how is it now)

Plus don’t forget the tramlines and the roads and the canals. Amsterdam is sure exciting to walk around :)

Maybe it's different where you live, but in every American city I've visited I have that experience with cars almost hitting me instead.

I’ve lived in urban cores in the US and never felt like that.

It didn't feel like that walking through downtown Atlanta, but it did walking through every smaller Georgia city I've walked in.

I like my odds better being hit by a bicycle than by a car. Also, I wouldn't have to beg people not to bankrupt me by calling an ambulance.

After living in Amsterdam for a while you just get used to it.

You learn to look left and right before stepping into a path or road.

100%. As a pedestrian Amsterdam is genuinely awful. I've been many times and nearly been taken out by cyclists and trams. Ebikes are causing a big rise in incidents too.

There is no sane or remotely cohesive design to layouts and few curbs and so on

If you are being taking out by trams of all things you are not paying attention to the road layout and markings. Probably similar with bike lanes. People in Amsterdam have very little tolerance for tourists walking in bike lanes because it happens so much.

This sounds like someone complaining about being razed by cars while strolling in the middle of the street.

In an alternate reality where cyclists stick dogmatically to their allocated space that might be true. Outside of Centraal is a total mess.

Ironically they complain when they have to share the road with those inconsiderate car drivers.

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