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Comment by pibechorro | Hacker News Reader

I remember reading a few months back about the revealed toxicity of the spike proteins, how they pass the blood brain barrier. It lines up with Covid "brain fog" symptoms being reported and it draws strong concerns over the mRna mass manufacturing of the spike protein within the body.

We are in for many long term side effects popping up like this, when you rush new treatments to market this is expected.

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The vaccine produces spike protein within your deltoid muscle cells, where it is rapidly degraded and presented to your immune system. It’s not running around in your bloodstream. Unlike the virus. Which means, incidentally, that if this is a concern of yours you should definitely prefer getting the vaccine to getting an infection.

This sounds unlikely to be true, given that getting the vaccine increases your risk of myocarditis (i.e. there's some effect on the heart muscle). Or maybe there's just some (small) percentage of cases where the spike proteins escape into the bloodstream.

Given the two dozen or so known causes of myocarditis, the vaccine does not stand out here. The risks of complications from the virus do stand out, in stark contrast.

Of course, and I'm not debating vaccine vs virus here (I've had both, myself), but even a single case of myocarditis (if we can conclusively prove that it comes from the vaccine... in reality, we can at most statistically suspect vaccine causes it) disproves the idea that "spike protein doesn't enter the bloodstream".

The theory behind "it doesn't cross" was that the modification to the spike "anchored" it to the inside of the cell, and the cell only presenting "the pointy end" (i.e. the relevant dangerous ACE2 binding domain) to the immune system, close to lymph node near the IM injection point.

Where I got my doubts about the "doesn't cross" claim, at least concerning Pfizer, which I researched :

- The identification of the spike, its in-vitro re-engineering, the formulation of a vaccine recepy took approximately two and a half months, from early Feb., 2020 to Apr. 27th, 2020. They started animal testing (60 mice, 12 monkeys) and on human volunteer (21) in parallel. It ended on Jul. 27th, '20.

- According to CT doc and FT docs, and publications, no study of biodistribution, on the theory that intra-musculary jab doesn't spread... Even though the spike protein was studied in the past (IIRC 'twas even patented around 2012 !), I didn't find any publication related to it saying it didn't cross such barriers, quite the contrary.

- They started the 40K volunteers CT right after, because of the reported absence of unwanted effects on the 20 first volunteers. Reportedly no change in formulation. Still no study.

- They started mass manufacturing during the second half of october, still no change in formulation, still no study.

The only indication of such a study was started was in the famed re-authorization letter a month ago, about them doing it now.

How and why is that even possible ? BionTech team is perfect on their first try at making a vaccine, as opposed a tailored gene therapy ? Really ?

Also :

- How do they prevent a cell presenting an anchored spike to clump with another cell with an ACE2

- Where is the study of the quality of that anchoring (i.e. what percentage of spikes don't anchor ?)

Unless they accidentally hit a vein and inject the vaccine directly into the bloodstream, anecdotal evidence[0] points to this for young men who get myocarditis. They often report tasting saline in their mouth shortly after the injection.

[0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7inaTiDKaU

What would be the mechanism leading to tasting saline in the mouth?

Metallic taste - adjuvant? (just a guess...)

The age and sex disparity in post-vac myocarditis would seem to disqualify that hypothesis. It's not like young men have veins in their deltoids where other demographics don't.

Tasting saline after an IV injection in nonsensical.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2806387/

EDIT: Young people, specifically men are also more likely to get myocarditis in the general population irregardless

What makes you think the percentage of inter-vascular injections causing myocarditis should be distributed evenly across a population?

This is wrong in two important ways.

1. The vaccine does not stay in your muscle - obviously. It spreads out from the muscle slowly and does indeed enter your blood stream.

2. It is not put spike protein. It is an exposed spike protein on a larger stable "base" that ensures the spike doesn't degrade easily - so while it's smaller than the virus, the entire vaccine protein is significantly larger than just the spike.

There is no spike protein in the vaccine. There is mRNA. That mRNA needs ribosomes to make the spike protein. So think about where there are ribosomes, and where the protein is made, and you’ll find the correct answer.

I don’t know where you heard the second point, but it is equally incorrect. The mRNA encodes just the spike, with two mutations to lock it into a pre-fusion conformation. Nothing there that qualifies as a “larger stable base”. The sequence is found here: https://web.archive.org/web/20210105162941/https://mednet-co...

You see the poly(A) sequence at the end? That is what stabalizes the entire structure so that it doesn't denature. I called it a "base", but you are right that it's not adding to the size of the overall structure much.

The point is that the normal virus protein obviously doesn't have that - it's human design to create stability.

My point was that there are not billions of covid spike proteins floating around the human body when you get the vaccine.

The polyA tail is in the 3′ UTR (after the stop codon) and is not translated. It doesn’t appear in the final protein sequence. It’s also a fairly standard feature.

To be clear, it's not translated into the final antibody, but it remains present in the vaccine, and hence in your body - it is what gives the vaccine structural stability in the body.

...and yes, it is standard - it is not covid-vaccine specific.

This is all covered in This Week in Virology - one of the recent episodes about 3 months ago.

>...It lines up with Covid "brain fog" symptoms being reported and it draws strong concerns over the mRna mass manufacturing of the spike protein within the body.

When the active virus invades, the whole body turns into its spike (and others) proteins factory. So, this should be lining up much stronger with the concerns outlined in such reasoning.

If anything objectively "rushed" in this case is, it's the rapid spread of the virus. I find it quite remarkable that the vaccines could be developed while the initial worldwide spread was still in progress.

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