Ask HN: Books on overcoming shyness

How to Win Friends & Influence People by Dale Carnegie

When I read this book, the timing was perfect and I credit it with refocusing my mind when it comes to relationships. Critics usually say that it's all just common sense, and I would agree -- however, these critics miss the fact that common sense is rarely common practice.

I recall my first few interactions after reading the first half of the book, and the stuff works, plain and simple. I wanted to kick myself for being so oblivious.

It sounds like you are already aware of the importance of relationships, so I would say, give it a shot and don't get discouraged. With practice, it will become easier (almost second nature when you see how positive the results are). You can also find some great summaries of this book online. Due to an overwhelmingly positive experience with this book, I later searched for further reading on the topic and ended up with "Ethics for the New Millennium" by the Dalai Lama -- this book helped to bring into focus the underlying "truth" of "How to Win Friends & Influence People" and is a nice follow up... good luck!

http://www.westegg.com/unmaintained/carnegie/win-friends.htm... (Summary)

http://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Friends-Influence-People/dp/06...

http://www.amazon.com/Ethics-New-Millennium-Dalai-Lama/dp/15...

This is the only book I was going to recommend.

great summary.

Me too, came here to just to say this.

1) Cranberry juice is an acceptable drink at a bar.

2) You must have some activity that people do in groups. Do you bike? Do you write code? Do you like to discuss books you've read?

3) If you can teach yourself to write tail-recursive code, an unnatural activity that gives you an end-result you want, you can teach yourself to be gregarious, an unnatural activity that gives you an end-result you want. Just practice! Start with events you don't care about, and keep practicing on more and more important events.

Ah, the venerable cranberry. Bounce berries. Alone, so bitter. Almost inedible. But with a bit of work.... When I was young we'd buy huge glass bottles of cranberry juice. Let it ferment. Good stuff. Frozen cranberry juice (alcoholic or not) makes for a nice snack, too.

Drinking cranberry juice at a bar has a nice side benefit: Whenever someone asks what you're drinking, you can play the vampire card. "The blood of my enemies." If you're exceedingly pale like myself, and can deliver a line, it can make skin crawl. (OK, so maybe that's not the idea... or the best approach.)

The advice is good, though - just because you don't or can't drink alcohol, does not mean you can't hang out in (most) bars. There are many regular things used to mix drinks they'll gladly sell you.

> I don't drink.

I hope not to offend you, but, speaking as someone who used to be very shy, I'd suggest you give it another shot (unless you're very attached to not drinking). You say you tense up and shut down in social situation -- this goes away when you have a few drinks in you. That's mostly why people drink!

You don't have to make drinking the cornerstone of your life -- just look at alcohol as training wheels for socializing. There are lots of tech meetups that happens in bars -- give it a shot!

Haha, thanks. I know, I probably wouldn't have this problem if I drank socially, but I really cannot stand the taste of alcohol. I used to drink here and there years ago, but the only drinks I liked were usually labelled "girls' drinks" and I was constantly made fun of. That probably didn't help my shyness either. But I appreciate your suggestion.

You can barely taste Vodka when mixed with Red Bull, and to begin with, just practice smiling at strangers; within two weeks you won't be shy anymore. From then on, just remember to be kind to everyone, and you'll be fine.

> just practice smiling at strangers

This is excellent advice. Actually, give anyone you interact with your dopiest, most shit-eating grin possible.

HOW YOU FEEL: Like a fucking idiot HOW THEY FEEL: Wow, this guy really appreciates this interaction! What a big smile! : D

You get used to it. I have gone through this too. I used to never smile in photographs. Now, I give every photograph my "retarded person who has just learned he is going to mcdonalds" huge idiot grin. You know what? Now I look like everyone else who smiles in photographs

Saying you "cannot stand the taste of alcohol" is like saying you "cannot stand the smell of air."

Well, alcohol is flavourless on its own. Also, it will kill you if you drink it raw, so don't try that.

Just like air, context is everything. The air in a sewer is much worse than the air in a field, because of the odours that are mixed into it. Now, preference for drinks is 100% subjective, unlike preference for air, but the idea is the same. If you only tried beer, perhaps you'd prefer wine. Or vice-versa.

You just have to find your own drinks you like.

> The only drinks I liked were usually labelled "girls' drinks" and I was constantly made fun of.

That's shameful (that you were made fun of). What, specifically, were the drinks you were made fun of for liking?

> it will kill you if you drink it raw

Sorry, but this is total nonsense. I knew many a chem student with access to pure ethanol (not to mention the wits to manufacture it). They are still with us (as are the photos)

So, pure alcohol/ethanol will not kill you faster than the equivalent liquor. You may, of course, wish for death ..

I guess by "taste of alcohol" I mean the taste of beer, wine, champagne, tequila, vodka, and anything else non-mixed I can't think of right now. I pretty much tried them all in my pursuit to find something I can drink without feeling tortured. In this quest I found that I was ok with cocktails (Long Island Ice Tea was my drink of choice for a while), but those you can only get when you're out at a bar. What about parties where the drinks come straight out of bottles from the grocery store? This is where I discovered Smirnoff Ice, which to me just doesn't have that gross alcohol taste. But of course because of that it's not generally considered a "manly" drink, so my peers always pressured me to drink "non-girly" drinks instead by making fun of me. After a while I just got sick of it and decided not to drink at all anymore, because it just wasn't worth the constant teasing.

You tell your drinking pals that someone on the Internet told you that there is no shame in drinking Smirnoff Ice.

Anyway, now it seems like I'm putting peer-pressure on you to start drinking again. That's even less cool than someone who laughs at a person's taste in drinks. I'll try to keep that in check.

No wonder alcohol is called the "social lubricant". :)

I'm also shy. I don't know of any instruction manuals, but I'll offer a tip. When you go to the next hacker meetup, sit down next to someone and immediately introduce yourself. Maybe that's the end of the conversation, maybe it's just the beginning, but forcing yourself to verbalize with someone at the start of the event will make it easier from then on. It's also likely that the person you sit next to is just as shy as you and me.

That's a great tip, thanks! I will try it out.

This might sound odd, but try reading The Game by Neil Strauss: http://www.amazon.com/Game-Penetrating-Secret-Society-Artist... . It's superficially about how to pick up women, but a lot of it is actually about how to understand social life, what incentives operate on people, and what kinds of things most "normal" (for lack of a better word) people like. Don't use "negs," don't get too wrapped up in his questionable tales of sexual bravado, but do consider what he writes about how to understand the world.

I just suggested the first exercise from there as something the OP might try out. :)

Thanks, I'll check it out!

"How to Win Friends & Influence People"

http://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Friends-Influence-People/dp/06...

I don't know if it's as "step-by-step" as you're looking for, but it's a classic and still quite popular -- I think it'll at least be a good starting point for you.

Thanks, I've actually read that one about a year ago and it's on my bookshelf. I think it was pretty good, but I felt it was a little outdated and the suggestions were all things I already knew.

I strongly believe that the best path to changing yourself is experience (and screwing up), and that no book can help you be social, at least not at the speed you're looking for.

Get out there and try! You know that sinking feeling you get whenever you do something awkward? That's a feedback mechanism: don't do things that cause that. Eventually you'll find what works for you and feel comfortable introducing yourself to groups. Even then you'll occasionally have an awkward moment: that's ok! We're all nerds in our own ways, and we've all been there. Just keep moving past it and don't lose your stride (the exact same advice one would give to a dancer or musician for when they mess up).

Hackers and Founders is a great event for this: it's a really great bunch of people. Hunt down Jonathan, the organizer[1] when you get there and explain that you're new to the area and would love to chat with people interested in X, Y, or Z. He'll get you started :). It's much easier to connect with people who share similar interests. Even if you suck at it initially, practice will make you better.

Holding a drink that you can take a sip of is also a great way to avoid awkwardness. As lsb said, cranberry juice (or even water/soda) works just as well as booze.

[1] On the right: http://photos4.meetupstatic.com/photos/event/2/6/5/4/600_168...

Thank you for the encouraging words and tips. I'll track down Jonathan on Thursday and see what happens.

Books are nothing compared to interfacing with people and mixing with the public to become comfortable in the setting of strangers.

You know what worked for me? Working at the front of a fast and busy cafe. Previously shy and introverted, now confident and outgoing with anyone I meet.

Stop reading books and talk to people.

Make it a goal to speak to two people you've never interacted with before every day. At work, say one intelligent or funny thing at every meeting you attend.

Make small talk. Be nice to people. Don't "network". Compliment the person who serves you at a reataurant. Say hi to the mailman. There is no magic here, and no book has some secret that will somehow allow you to socialize without getting up and talking to people.

I don't think you understand the problem. I suffer from the same social problems that the OP does and if it were as simple as just saying something intelligent or funny, we would do it. But it's not that simple; you can't think of anything to say.

Besides, have you ever heard someone try to be funny? It's not funny.

I felt just like the OP did when I was a child. I was teased and picked on pretty mercilessly growing up, and then we moved to a completely new and different area (ie NYC to a town of 3,000).

In the new town, I wasn't picked on, but was kind of ignored. I had a thick NYC accent and people had no idea what I was saying. I felt insecure and was always afraid to speak up... I'm terrible with remembering names, so that made it worse. Then in 7th grade, I literally woke up one morning and said to myself "This needs to stop." So I made it a point to engage with people, do things that were funny (of course as a 7th grader, "funny" is questionable in most cases!)

The whole point is not to actually be funny, it's to get some confidence. You "practice" on low-risk people like cashiers. if you get the girl at the gas station to smile, you brightened someone's day. If you sound like an idiot, you try again another time.

Later in high school, I took a drama elective where I learned to be comfortable speaking in a public setting. In college, I ended up in a retail commissioned sales job where I had to speak to a few hundred people a day.

I guess my theory is that you have to act. Don't deliberate in your head. Talk. The worst thing that can happen is you get rejected.

As has already been stated, "How to win friends and influence people" is probably your best bet. However you'd be better off finding a way to practice your skills.

A couple things to realize: many people are lonely (like you), and like to discuss their interests. In high school I was lucky enough to discover how easy it is to break through this with a few events where no one knew more than a few people.

The habit I adopted in college, and wish would be easier to do in suburbia was going to dining halls alone, (and this does work elsewhere ... but have a book handy in case no one is interested) look for anyone who's eating alone and doesn't seem to be working or already engrossed in a book, and ask if they'd like company.

I've done it successfully the two times I've found myself with the time to do it after college, and numerous times during college. The same approach works in many large group social scenes.

Good luck. Oh, if you really want to improve things rapidly, ask if there is anyone on hackers news who is interested in helping you break through this for a free drink or meal. It might be easier if you know one or two people prior to the meetup, in order to help with introductions.

Be genuinely interested in people. You can learn tricks to appear social, but it will be fake. If you find yourself in places where you find it hard to talk to people, you're probably not that interested in talking to them anyway. It's ok if you don't.

Seek out places and people which actually interest and excite you. You will know what to say (like you just did here).

"If you have something to say, then say it. If not, enjoy the silence while it lasts. The noise will return soon enough. In the meantime, you're better off going out into the big, wide world, having some adventures and refilling your well. Trying to create when you don't feel like it is like making conversation for the sake of making conversation. It's not really connecting, it's just droning on like an old, drunken barfly."

http://changethis.com/manifesto/6.HowToBeCreative/pdf/6.HowT...

Show up to the improv lessons offered by BATS Improv (www.improv.org). They teach a bunch of classes in San Francisco and occasionally in Palo Alto as well. I did this and the lessons are awesome. You are constantly forced to say something - anything - on the spot.

Give up the idea of taking it step-by-step, being comfortable, or having instructions to follow. If you want to learn to talk to strangers, just do it. Say something or ask a question to the barista every time you order coffee. Plan on awkward moments aplenty. This can't be avoided; don't even try.

Also give up the idea that you need to fix yourself. You already have plenty to offer, as indeed everyone does. As I was told once, "your attention is enough". Just pay attention to people and don't mentally check out when situations get confusing, ambiguous, or awkward.

Babe Ruth struck out 1,330 times. :)

> But I do need some sort of help (and I think therapy is a little overkill).

One on one therapy may be overkill, but don't rule out a coach or a group. Seriously - if this is something that you find you can't overcome from practice and a book, but want to, it makes sense to seek professional help in some form. For example, Los Altos has "The Shyness Clinic": http://www.shyness.com/shyness-clinic.html. I just found it in simple searching around - I'm not endorsing them in particular.

I'm a nerd too - and there's a ton of things that I couldn't just read and practice away. In fact, our intelligence often gets in the way of our progress - overthinking can do more harm than good on many social issues that plague us nerds. It's hard to stop overthinking by studying!

I've got a ton of friends who do group dance lessons to meet people and get out of the house.

General tips:

* Smile! It'll put others at ease and it'll put you at ease too.

* Leave when you're done - don't stay just because you feel bad you haven't spent n minutes there.

* Silence is OK - if someone talks to you, it's way better to take an extra 5 seconds (which will feel like an eternity!) and then start your reply than feeling like you need to respond the split second the other person finishes. It didn't feel natural at first, but when I listen to other people it happens all the time.

* Everyone loves to talk about themselves. Tell the person you're new to the area and ask them what their favorite drive, hike, day trip, restaurant, or hot new start up is. Ask them why. Ask them anything related. They'll think you're swell and you didn't have to have any deep searching to answer their questions!

What brought you out to the Bay Area anyway? And what are your interests?

Thanks Matt! I did find the Shyness Clinic as well before I posted here, but the frugal person in me thought that maybe I can get over this without spending a ton of money. But in the end if nothing else helps I'll definitely consider it.

As to answer your questions, I moved here because my wife got a job and we've been wanting to move away from LA for a while. I've been really interested in how to run a startup recently and I'm currently trying my hands on one as well. So I'm looking to meet people who are technical and entrepreneurial, as that's how I would describe myself.

Not exactly a book, but have you looked at http://rejectiontherapy.com/ ?

I think it's better than a book. You don't fix your social issues by reading, you fix them by doing.

Sure, there are workbooks you can buy if you don't have access to a psychologist or therapy group. The only catch is that there is nobody to push you to go through the exercises and you won't have the benefit of external feedback from a counselor or a peer group. You'll have to force yourself to do the exercises properly and it will take longer than if you had professional help.

Anyway, here's a few workbooks I found with minimal effort. Go over the reviews to decide which to try:

http://www.amazon.com/Shyness-Social-Anxiety-Workbook-Step-/...

http://www.amazon.com/Managing-Social-Anxiety-Workbook-Cogni...

http://www.amazon.com/Shyness-Social-Anxiety-Workbook-Techni...

http://www.amazon.com/Overcoming-Social-Anxiety-Shyness-Beha...

I also posted this awhile ago: http://news.ycombinator.org/item?id=2614140

That is an example of a therapy group program.

Thanks, I'll look into all of that. At this point I think I can do it myself because I'm pretty self-disciplined and once I set my mind to something I follow through. However if for some reason books aren't enough I will of course consider going to some sort of therapy group. Thanks again!

The books suggested here have been pretty good, but books will only help you so much. Consider this suggestion: Talk to 5 new people every day. They can be anyone, on an elevator, a person walking by, a person in a queue just start a conversation about anything. You will be surprised by how easy it is to start a conversation. If you are petrified to start a conversation, rehearse the conversation beforehand. Let us know, how it goes.

Sorry to be so blunt, but for someone who doesn't have any social skills, it's odd you would feel that Dale Carnegie's book is outdated. It doesn't seem like you are qualified to know what is outdated or not, given your lack of expertise.

I suggest you follow that book because it concentrates on the fundamentals. It's very important you internalize this.

When you go to the Hackers and Founders meetup, every 1 hr, walk up to someone and say "Hi, my name is gs7. So what brings you here?" It is awkward and embarrassing, but work through it. You'll get over it. At least it's friendly and people won't think you're a jerk. And then you can engage people on things that are interesting to both of you.

If you do this exactly 100 times over the course of several months, you'll find that it's not a problem anymore. All it takes is practice. You will fail miserably the first 40 times. The next 30 times, you'll do crappy, but you'll be doing better. The next 20 times, you'll be doing okay. And the last 10 times, you'll be good at it.

By labeling his book outdated I actually meant the examples and situations he describes. The lessons learned and advice he gives are definitely timeless.

After reading everyone's suggestions here I realized that I'm not as socially inept as I thought. I do have the fundamentals down. I guess it's the lack of practice and not knowing how to keep a conversation going when you're not naturally interested in the other person that I'm having a difficult time with.

But I appreciate your suggestion on how to approach people at the Hackers & Founders meeting. I think this is what I need, tips on how to initiate a conversation while sounding natural. And LOTS of practice. Thanks!

Try to think more about the person/people you are interacting with instead of yourself.

I am in very much the same situation. Something thing I've found that really helps me is just reading about shy behavior. I find that identifying an issue is the first step to solving, and reading descriptions of shy behavior often help me better and more precisely identify what to fix. One book I found to be quite helpful in this regard was "The Introvert Advantage" by Marti Laney.

Well my very simple solution was to look up shy people even with a different mindset. In fact, we share something. So far, it has been great and it works. It works really well. I used to have no friends at all. I started by meeting one and now we are meeting almost everyday. Now I have 4 friends and we are socializing with other peers.

Get to know people like you :)

Look into Albert Ellis' ideas and derivative CBT treatments. Here is the story about Ellis' efforts to overcome his own social anxiety http://approachanxiety.com/2008/05/i-gave-myself-a-brilliant...

Thanks, I'll check it out!

Excellent advice and book recommendations in this thread. Though I must admit that upon reading the title, I could only think of this:

http://walkthrough.starmen.net/earthbound/image/screens/36/t...

One book I like is Bolles' "What color is your parachute?" It is about job-searching, but the message of the book is: find things you like; be cheerful, polite, grateful always; remember that most people are usually happy to help; nobody owes you anything, and you don't owe anyone anything.

I don't know if books are the best way to go about this.

I overcame my shyness with improvisational acting. Consider taking a class. Social encounters become a lot less intimating once you realize you can get away with almost anything as long as you have a smile on your face.

- "How to Win Friends and Influence People" as other mentioned here

- join a Toastmaster's club. practice your speaking and presentation skills.

- meetup.com is a great way to meet people with common interests in your local area

Thanks for the suggestions. I'm seriously considering joining a toastmaster's club, I'm just worried that having to prepare speeches every week would be a ton of work that I don't have much time for. But if that's what it takes to get me over this I'll do it.

What helped me was creating good experiences in social settings. I am 200% more relaxed and social when I am a host, so you may try hosting friends and with a little wine play games (i.e, dictionary, etc.). Best wishes

http://www.succeedsocially.com/

This guy has written a lot about this topic. I find his material very readable.

Excellent, thanks. I'll look into it.

I recommend Richard Feynman books.

also see this:http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2501560

Join a group that interests you on meetup.com. I did this a couple of years ago and it helped me out tremendously.

Two words - salsa dancing

I have found that doing a class in theatrical improv to be a fantastic exercise for removing social inhibition and gaining skills in group dynamics.