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Comment by tomnipotent | Hacker News Reader

> It's the cost for the channel.

Except it's not. People don't download Uber or Netflix because of the app stores. Epic demonstrated unequivocally they could get installs without Google involved as an intermediary. The app store value at this point is singularly it their platform-specific monopolies, and the fact that you have no choice but to play ball to do business on mobile.

> The real world equivalent is supermarkets

It's nothing like that. I have multiple supermarket chains I can go to - I have only Apple and Google when dealing with mobile. Customers can choose either Apple or Google, but most businesses are stuck doing business with both. Not even Microsoft screwed over both sides like this.

At this point, Google and Apple have done far more harm to both customers and businesses than Microsoft ever had. It's beyond frustrating.

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That's not actually the truth. You can go to F-Droid, or Cydia, Amazon or one of the dozens of SEA app stores that exist.

You have plenty of options. Your argument is basically that Wal-Mart is everywhere, so Wal-Mart should be forced to serve you on your terms.

Epic is suing Google over direct and considered anti-competitive action preventing alternative stores from taking hold, and they might have a case.

https://www.theverge.com/2021/8/19/22632804/epic-google-laws...

Meanwhile, you reference Cydia (my alternative to the App Store), but I am myself suing Apple for over their efforts to lock us out competing on iOS.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/12/10/cydia-a...

https://cache.saurik.com/lawsuit/complaint.pdf

Epic lost their lawsuit completely against Apple.

I used Cydia many a year ago (in 2009) when I had the iPhone 3GS. If I recall correctly, the root I had to apply to be able to get it installed also allowed me to get your backgrounder plus sbsettings mods - thus getting real multitasking working!

It made my experience of owning my first (and last) iPhone so much better - thanks very much for that, always a fan. Iirc, I was also able to buy one or two apps there, but my memory may be hazy.

I hope you're successful with your Apple lawsuit.

I know Cydia's your thing (I'd recognize your username anywhere) and I have an infinite amount of respect for you because of it, but I think the status quo is probably fine. iOS is a minority of the market and "Do you know how to jailbreak your cell phone?" serves as a decent deterrent to stop clueless people from butchering themselves with too much freedom.

It sounds really lame to say, but it feels like what you're suggesting is the exact opposite of what the market wants. People want a device they can give to their kid without worrying that they'll mess it up.

And I don't think this is an issue where any side actually cares about freedom; you allow proprietary software on Cydia, which sort of kills the user freedom argument, but even then, people would still be free to just buy a phone that supports them using their phone in a way they want to.

The sandbox protects the OS. Apps from different stores could remain sandboxed. In addition, parental controls could easily allow restricting the phone to the App Store.

> It sounds really lame to say, but it feels like what you're suggesting is the exact opposite of what the market wants.

If that's what the market wanted then Apple wouldn't have to spend so much money on preventing their customers from rooting their phones, running any apps they want to run and using alternative mobile app distribution methods.

> People want a device they can give to their kid without worrying that they'll mess it up.

Chromebooks are those devices, which is one of the reasons they're used in education. There were 40 million Chromebooks in public schools and about 53 million K-12 students in the US in 2019.

You can run whatever Android or Linux software you want on them, and use whatever mobile app distribution you want, too, like F-Droid.

Any updates since that Washington Post article was published? Do you have a blog or something with press releases or updates about the case?

I hope you get somewhere with the complaint.

> That's not actually the truth. You can go to F-Droid, or Cydia, Amazon or one of the dozens of SEA app stores that exist.

Is that sarcasm? All of those combined don't even have 0.5% of the market.

There's no competition, period.

There is no competiton in countless situations when you narrowly define the scope.

For example is there competition in the "operating system for Samsung microwaves" market ?

I'm not narrowing the scope, all of those combined together are at best less than one percent of all the mobile app market.

They are negligible.

Amazon was a real player for awhile, but they stopped treating developers well and their app store started to lag behind.

Back when the Amazon app store first started, they gave away a high quality free app every week. Great for user acquisition, then IIRC they stopped paying the app developers whose apps they were giving away, and the quality of the store overall started to drop off soon after.

If Amazon had made a play of taking a much smaller % of payment fees, sales and subs, they could have continued building momentum and been a serious competitor.

I presume they decided not to for some good reason, but the potential was there.

> Your argument is basically that Wal-Mart is everywhere, so Wal-Mart should be forced to serve you on your terms.

If Wal-Mart had nearly the prevalence of Google Play (on Android) and the App Store (on iOS), it should probably have some cap on its cut, too.

> People don't download Uber or Netflix because of the app stores

Uber would never have existed without the App Store.

> It's nothing like that

It's exactly like that. That's where the business model comes from. It's a digital representation of the way physical stores interact with OEMs.

> It's exactly like that.

It's not exactly like that. Kroger and Safeway cannot prevent potato chips from being sold outside of Kroger and Safeway.

That's the whole point of the conversation here, don't know how you're missing it. Apple and Google are the textbook definitions of illegal monopolies, Kroger and Safeway are not.

> Uber would never have existed without the App Store.

Maybe not within smart phones, but the app store has nothing to do with the success of Uber aside from forced inclusion in the transaction.

Believe it or not, software went decades being successfully purchased and installed by customers before app stores came along. Even on the Blackberry.

Uber, Netflix and Epic may not need the channel. But Apple/Google are betting that for the long tail of developers, the benefits of the App stores outweigh the costs.

Personally, I am far more likely to try out a subscription if I can do it through the app store, as I don't have to hand over my credit card details, and I know I'll be able to easily cancel.

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