Drone operator will try to rescue dogs from Spanish volcano | Hacker News Reader

Drone operator will try to rescue dogs from Spanish volcano

reuters.com

They should drop a trap with food if the dogs are still ambulatory. Avoids having to hover and make multiple trap attempts, and risk running out of power in flight. It's also easier to pick up a trap with a dog in it than trap a dog terrified of the giant buzzing thing above them. And it ensures they don't half-net a dog only to have it fall out en-route.

I think that's basically their plan. In order for it to work, they need each dog to voluntarily enter the net.

I'm imagining three skeptical dogs. One cautiously enters the net. The other dogs watch as the first is lifted and flown away. I wonder what the other two dogs would think then. Hopefully they'd see that anywhere else is better than where they've been stuck. And I guess drones have been dropping food so they would have at least some positive experience with drones in the past.

Relevant PBF? https://pbfcomics.com/comics/the-jubilee/

Haha this is extremely relevant, I love it.

> than trap a dog terrified of the giant buzzing thing above them.

That's what the food drops are for. Once they associate the drones with food they shouldn't be very scared of them.

I'm wondering why a net vs. a cage trap? I guess it's a weight thing?

A trap would be the way of choice with one dog but the drone could have still problems with the extra weight

I think that they want to avoid the other dogs being alarmed and running directly into the lava crust that looks rock but is still very hot.

They have been feeding the dogs for some days now, so the dogs are used to the drones to get the food. Hopefully they will catch them effortlessly.

Yay! I am cheering them on.

I believe I found Aerocameras youtube channel, which also contains links to website, Instagram, Facebook, and Linkedin

https://www.youtube.com/user/dreamsfactorysl

This appears to be the drone they're using:

https://www.dji.com/mobile/t20/specs

I'm not sure how to calculate the max payload, it looks like maybe 20kg.

> Standard Takeoff Weight: 42.6 kg

> Max Takeoff Weight: 47.5 kg (at sea level)

So just about 5 kg (11 lb). Medium size dogs weight trice that, plus a net, maybe the drone was modified to lift more.

Hovering time of 10-15 minutes also seems to be not that much for the rescue operation, flight and howering times with a payload will be even less.

Though website mentions thrust-to-weight ratio of 1.7 for 47.5 kg, so it can lift up to extra 33 kg. There is also a description of a spraying system with a tank of 20 l/kg, so it seems 20 kg is the actual payload capacity.

If they have been dropping food from drones, why have they been "eating very little"? Couldn't they just drop more food...?

Agree. Seems like a much safer bet.

Dogs often eat a lot less when they are stressed, though usually not so little or for so long that they get emaciated.

Dropping more food and waiting for a better conditions for rescue is risky. The volcano is always changing and could suddenly obliterate that part with lava, or poisonous gas, or ashes. They could maybe use a trained dog in a cage as bait, but could be seen as animal cruelty.

And, well... The new Spanish law of animal cruelty is an incredible mess bordering religious stuff. The government want to force every owner of a dog or cat to castrate it by law. (Yes, trying to save tree dogs on film, wile planning forced sterilisation for all dogs and cats in Spain).

I could be wrong, but this is that they were saying on TV the last month.

If you are a dog owner and want to have your dog entire would be illegal because... think on the sad pups that could suffer if they would born (but, what is never alive can't suffer, phew!).

Sometimes I wonder if those people are real of robotic IA running wild doing laws without any real people at charge.

Vets of course would be drooling with that idea.

Yes, you could be wrong and you are. It's a law proposal, not a law in any way.

I also guess that it's a bit more complicated than that, but I won't make any assumptions before I read it myself instead of what a Spanish TV/newspaper can tell me as they are always super biased. I suggest you to do the same.

A law proposal can became a law so there is a really crazy lawmaker somewhere proposing it.

And after checking it, It seems that is true. The law would force the owner to sterilize all animals that could roam free or if you have animals of bot sexes living together you would be forced to sterilize all pets from one sex at least. They want to forbid to breed any pet unlike you have a permit for that. A kid with an aquarium or an insect pet must ask the government a breeding permit if wants to breed a butterfly or a stick insect? Seriously?

It seems that the robotic dogs will have finally a serious chance be adopted in mass and to make money.

Obviously a last ditch rescue attempt, which vindicates the untested methodology that we might otherwise be critical of.

Also rather faith restoring that so many people are attempting to save these animals at cost to themselves.

This language reminds me of the infamous Thai cave rescue. Look how public opinion turned on Elon in that instance.

There are a lot of differences here, of course.

Didn't public opinion swing against Elon Musk for trying to insert himself into an already on-going rescue and then called one of the men who did rescue the kids a 'pedo-guy'? That's something I'd expect from a 13 year old on xbox live.

That exactly. People were disgusted by the attention grab and the lack of respect for people risking their lives. 'I'm a billionaire, look at me!' syndrome.

Are. Not were. The fact that we see this still being mentioned is a pretty good testimony to how utterly tone deaf Musk was when he did that.

That’s an astute point.

> one of the men who did rescue the kids a 'pedo-guy'?

AFAIK it was a consultant, who advised the actual divers, who first told elon to “shove his sub up his ass”.

Immaturity all around.

If the conditions got any worse, the sub would have been necessary. The kids got lucky they could use the simple method.

Helicopters cannot handle the potential heat. Drones have issues with payload and control. This is an Ironman situation. Someone call Yves Rossy.

Seriously. This looks like an opportunity for one of the many jet/wingsuit contraptions that have appeared in recent years. Does anyone have a number for that guy spotted over LAX?

The Yves Rossy jet-powered wingsuits seem to be always air launched, i.e. they get airborne out of another aircraft. There is no ground launch.

You might be thinking this kind of "jet pack" contraption:

https://gravity.co/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-54331994

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/sep/29/jet-suit-par...

And I'm not saying that those are "safe" exactly, but flying them at low altitude over hot lava would be a whole new risk.

In Dubai last year one of the wingsuits demonstrated a standing takeoff, sat in a controlled hover, then transition to forward flight. If they can perfect the reverse, transition from forward flight back into hover, then Ironman will be real.

> but flying them at low altitude over hot lava would be a whole new risk

Also in every demonstration I've seen those things have been LOUD. The dogs are likely to not get on with that, so they will bolt, and there is not nearly enough time to try get them acclimatised to it.

That’s not how we’d use it. We’d send the guy on the damn jet pack into where the dogs are. Send the drones in, have the guy man handle the dogs into the net so there is no time wasted. Once the dogs are out, the bastard jet packs out of there lol.

What dreams are made of. I really need a happy outcome to all of this for some reason.

Poor dogs will be terrified but got to hope the best for them. It feels like a tall order though, in and out in 8 minutes... Not sure I can watch tbh

The article doesn't mention any way to follow this. Anyone have any idea?

Twitter and google translate: https://mobile.twitter.com/aerocamaras

Just for the record, the dogs vanished the same day (just hours before) that the drones had planned to act.

It seems that have been rescued by somebody entering the lava crust at night, now chilled to 60 Celsius. They left a message in the pool claiming that the dogs are ok and signing as "the A-team".

Keeping it simple got the job done:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/21/drone-search-w...

So looks like the dogs have been rescued already by a mysterious group that calls themselves, the A-Team. Human footsteps have appeared in the rooftop where the dogs were and a giant banner was planted saying "Be strong La Palma. The dogs are fine. A-Team". No kidding!

https://english.elpais.com/spain/2021-10-21/mysterious-a-tea...

Why not leave them there and continue to feed and water them?

The eruption is continuing and is often quite severe, I assume there's no guarantee that the place they are will stay safe for long.

We just imported such a dog from spain from a rescue agency to find a new owner for the dog in germany (thats the most easy part, I guess). Otherwise they are euthanized. Its a Podenco mix, the same type of dog as seen on the pictures.

I really hope they can rescue them but I fear these dogs will it not make easy to catch them with a net and even more hard to fly them out because I bet they will try to free them self.

While the situation is sad, it makes me incredibly happy there are people who worry this much about another living being.

Whenever I hear about tech helping save lives it always fills me with joy to think about all the effort that went in to building this tech, to all the people who involuntarily helped make that tech become a reality.

https://archive.md/fjkXQ

I think the 4minutes will be very hard. But since the limiting factor is the battery and the dog probably not cooperating, why not first fly a solar panel (to charge the drone) or an unpowered trap (to give enough time to catch the dog) to allow to rerisk the limitations…

Flying in a solar panel along with a system that can connect itself to the drone autonomously sounds very expensive (does such a system exist?). Or is the idea to put a solar panel on the drone, and then have it land and charge for a while?

Something like a big raccoon trap is probably a good idea - perhaps they’re running up against weight limits. Those traps are pretty heavy.

A deep trash can with some meat glued to the bottom would probably work, with the drone tied to something near the open top. It would fall on its side when set down, and trap the dog when lifted. Assuming there's a way to lift it quickly enough.

I suppose dropping a trap, and coming back later is a better idea, but it would use a lot of the 20kg weight budget.

Good idea. I'm not sure why drone charging stations with auto landing pads aren't a commerically sold product yet. I've seen a lot of implementations in masters theses and stuff. If your robot vaccum can do it, your drone can do it.

Autel recently announced one: http://autelrobotics.com/productdetail/6.html

Cool!

I assume they'll use a lightweight trap cage loaded with food that's laced with some kind of tranquilizer.

Then after the cage is dropped just come back and fly it out.

Anything else seems pretty risky to me.

Here's a volcanology institute keeping track of the eruptive volcanic activity on the island and they are doing a great job.

https://mobile.twitter.com/involcan

Can't we get some of those Boston Dynamics dogs to carry the real dogs out of there?

The problem is that the floor is lava.

This seems like a bad idea. Are they hurting? Can't they just keep flying in food and water?

If they fall they're dead, if they get tangled in the net they might be dead.

You're right, the dogs trapped next to an live, erupting volcano will be perfectly fine long term.

Just wondering: Would this be something for somebody with one of the new jetpacks?

jetpacks may be subject to the same issue as helicopter - smoke particulate getting into the jet engines.

There though a lot of human carrying electric VTOL drone-like flying vehicles have been developed and tested in recent years - YouTube is full of such videos - and that i think would work better here, whether with human or without as it would have even better carrying capacity and fly time without human.

steerable dirigible, like the goodyear blimp, with suspended cable and basket?

If the heat is intense enough to damage helicopter blades, I question how well a big bag of gas is going to cope.

The gas will be fine, it'll not be flammable. German airships like Hindenburg used hydrogen because helium (that it was originally intended to use) was relatively rare and there was an export ban from the US (who were producing and holding the majority of what was available). Modern devices won't use flammable gasses.

The problem will be the heat for a different reason: changing the dynamics between the gas in the device and the atmosphere inside making buoyancy much more difficult to maintain. Also, the engines used to move them around might be susceptible to the same concerns as helicopter engines & blades.

What the hell would this accomplish

Improve range, dwell time, carrying capacity, and noise levels.

well, I mean i'm posing the question because I just don't know the limits of the aircraft

It would crash.

A dirigible requires a temperature difference between the ambient (surrounding) air and the air inside the lift bladder. Or the same temperature but different density.

The heat of the lava would create an area of lower air density which would result in a significant loss of lift as it crosses.

I guess you could compensate with a high altitude crossing, but it still sounds dangerous.

This situation was covered in season 3 of Avatar The Last Airbender, and that is exactly what happened. Such a great show.

It really was. But it's possible the volcanic lake only projected a captured cell of hot air up to the crater rim. Had they flown over the prison and then directly down they might not have crashed. Though they would still be trapped.

If only Zuko had his fire fists or that of his sister Azula at that point it would have been easier.

Man Uncle Iroh is OP with the fire breath technique he teaches Zuko for the "chillers"

Honestly, these kinds of stories make me proud of humanity.

Is a helicopter out of the question?

Have you opened the link?

> Helicopters are banned from flying to the area because of hot gas that can damage their rotors.

Which is not quite accurate. AFAIK, the problem is that the tiny particles quickly destroy the turbine engines, not the rotor itself.

I’m sure the tiny particles would damage the rotors as well. Even rain is bad enough.

Probably the reporter assumes most people consider the whole "spinny thing that keeps helicopter in air" package to be one thing. Turbine, rotor and all.

Or the reporter and editor both don't know much about helicopters, or don't consider the details of why they can't fly to be worth spending their time on.

Which makes me wonder about the feasibility of a drone with flight powered by hydrogen peroxide rather than electric motors......

Little single-person helicopters powered with 85% H2O2 and a silver catalyst cropped up as a thing back in 2010, but the company in question appears to be gone now.

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