i already went to college, and worked hard to get my CS degree. i don’t do and should not be doing these interviews, and everyone else should do the same. it is the only way to stop this.
I suggest you sit in on some of these interviews if you get the chance, you will very quickly see what an absolute train wreck they are when you get someone with the right paper qualifications who just doesn't know how to code at all.
I am sure they can be, but there are many accounts of talented people who initially bombed these things in a big embarrassing way, NOT because they lack ability, but because they never practiced for the test and didn't know what to expect (yes it happens).
This can happen to folks who learned on the job until they outgrew their job and decided to leave. They suddenly find themselves doing an "obstacle course" technical interview gauntlet that focuses on things that they just haven't had to think about for a long time (or ever). I believe talented enough folks can get through it if they can focus and study for a while (and accept the humiliation of failing big at first). It's not an infinity of subject matter, nor is it rocket science. I think if someone loves the work enough they can get themselves through it.
but, i disagree with the solution you suggest. the only solution is to refuse and instead of wasting 3 months training with no guarantees, build a product instead and sell it.
Because being a software engineer means running your own business… right.
Just like surgeons should start their own hospital before getting hired. Makes total sense…
- clearly incompetent surgeons never graduate
- any surgeon who can’t do the equivalent of basic “surgeon leetcode” would be painfully obvious to their colleagues on the job and would struggle to continue employment as a surgeon
I totally sympathize with your sentiments, but building a product and selling it ALSO has NO guarantees.
These folks that "learned on the job" often were hired into completely different roles from SWE but ended up doing it anyway and they're not making anything close to ~300K FAANG money. So, it's not THAT much of a stretch to blow a good number of months grinding leetcode if a job upgrade is a possibility.
Ultimately, it's a matter of finding the right place. Often that means using your professional network and getting referrals. If the gauntlet can be bypassed through connections, that's a good thing for everyone.
also, no other white collar job has these sorts of ridiculous demands. and no, engineering does not pay disproportionately well.
finally, most of these interviews test if you solve a very specific programming problem in under a minute. the only way to succeed is by having already solved that particular problem before. so the interviews don’t test if you are a good computer scientist. they test how far you are willing to go to get the job.
Western European grads are no better or worse than elsewhere. Tech jobs do pay disproportionately well (not as much as the US but still well), and I assure you other white-collar fields such as law, finance and medicine have plenty of ridiculous demands and barriers to entry - often much worse than the ones we see in tech.
Honestly if you are as good as you say you are you should be happy to just walk into any tech company you like, spend a couple hours showing off, and be set for life.
You’re supposed to be solving it as you go, most of the time while interacting with your interviewer. Certainly not “in under a minute” unless your concept of “leetcode interview” is some kind of rapid-fire “I tell you the problem you describe a sketch of the solution as quickly as possible”.
I will also echo the other commenter’s opinion regarding “CS in Western Europe”. Not only do you have people graduating who can’t build working software, you also have a wide range of skill levels such that some companies want to hire from the top of the distribution and not just “any CS grad who can build software”.
The problem is when some dogshit startup that got funding 2 weeks ago copies Google's process. That I don't know how we can fix.
If you refused to answer technical questions during an interview because you believed your degree should be enough, you would not get a job from me, period. I don't know if that's true universally, but I expect it to be nearly so.
in our program we had to work in team on projects besides doing our own. maybe you went to a shitty program.
But more importantly, if you think a group project is anything at all reflective of daily software development, you’re exactly the candidate I’m trying to put under a microscope.
Honestly, your downright terrible attitude would disqualify you well before any technical questions.
It doesn't matter if the program you personally took was good preparation, if most programs sucks then people will assume that your program also sucked since you have no other way to separate yourself from those who went to those sucky programs.
also, you can’t bribe anyone at universities where i’m from.
And what if we need practical programming experience, not just algorithmic CS stuff? Can we ask you questions about that?
It's possible to be a good computer scientist without being a good programmer, and vice versa.
[1] https://quoteinvestigator.com/2021/04/02/computer-science/
I enjoy LC, I'm good at it, and I find most of the people complaining about it to be the same sort of people as parents who would complain about how their kid "was very smart, but just not a good test-taker" if only those elite colleges would just take notice.
Your comparison is actually perfect - elite colleges pass on bright students all the time and often just filter for those willing to play the game.
Based on my experience, this is a solid proportion of nerdy men (I say as one of them). When I was studying physics, all sorts of people would want to talk about their interest in physics and quantum mechanics with me but they "were only good with the concepts, not the math." Any brief conversation would reveal they didn't have the damnedest idea what was going on.
My suspicion is that these are the people driving the anti-leetcode discourse.
Top unis absolutely pass on bright students all the time, you are right.
I was new to this, but had looked up two coding quizes. The first one was really simple, I found it a bit embarrassing during the first few interviews. Now that was the interview, with this guy, when I decided that I'll never state that I'll give them two coding challenges and that the first one is really simple. Because the dude wasn't able to solve it, at all. And when I say simple, I mean simple. My co-founder, who sat over all those interviews and who really had nothing to do with programming, did already understand the problem and solution after a few rounds of interviews.
So while I do think that getting CS (or similar) degree does indeed give you a lot it's by no means a proof that someone can actually write code.
It sucks sometimes, but we have to deal with the world as it actually is, not how we wish it to be.
When it comes down to it, the universe doesn’t give a shit about our opinions :)
I’m not saying mindlessly accept a shitty deal. I’m saying that wishful thinking such as “it shouldn’t be this way and I’m going to pretend it isn’t” is not very helpful.
If you can turn such thinking into a useful action that leads toward the outcome you want or a general improvement, then that is great. But that isn’t always easy to do.
Sometimes you have to deal with bullshit because the result is worth it. Or choose another path entirely, realizing the trade off you are making.