When Americans picnicked in cemeteries | Hacker News Reader

When Americans picnicked in cemeteries

atlasobscura.com

52 pointssamclemens57 comments

> One of the reasons why eating in cemeteries become a “fad,” as some reporters called it, was that epidemics were raging across the country: Yellow fever and cholera flourished, children passed away before turning 10, women died during childbirth. Death was a constant visitor for many families, and in cemeteries, people could “talk” and break bread with family and friends, both living and deceased.

It's fascinating that the article also notes that the older generation at the time (late 19th century) viewed the fad with disgust:

> But plenty of Americans believed that picnics in local cemeteries were a “gruesome festivity.” This critique, notably from older generations, didn’t stop young adults from meeting up in graveyards. Instead it led to debate over proper conduct.

This was a phenomenon driven by the times. Lots of deaths mean you spend a lot more time at the cemetery. Cemeteries started to lose their association with loss/decay and gained more of an association with remembrance.

There's quite a lot on this topic, like this article, which notes that another reason for the pull of cemeteries at that time was the Civil War:

> ... Beginning in the late 1800s, cemeteries were prime picnic spots. Remember, in the aftermath of the bloody Civil War and in an age of cholera and yellow fever, cities created large new cemeteries to accommodate the dead. Family farms or sacred churchyards were no longer the only spots for burial grounds. These new-age cemeteries looked and functioned more like public parks than stark, spooky graveyards. They featured professional landscaping, winding paths, ponds, and pavilions.

https://connectingdirectors.com/55122-cemetery-picnics

There is a Chinese holiday, Qingming ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qingming_Festival ), devoted to caring for ancestors' graves. Obviously, there is heavy cemetery traffic on that day.

The major ritual involves burning (fake) money for the deceased to use in the afterlife, but food offerings are also made. The food is not burned - it is recovered and eaten by normal living people, though I don't know whether people eat in the cemetery.

The general idea of bringing food to the cemetery so that a dead relative can be part of the meal too, though, seems fairly natural to me. When you want to spend time with a dead person, where would you go to do that?

They do eat there, here in Hong Kong it's even funny: people dont go all at the same time and end up putting their trash on other people's grave, making the entire cemetary a mess on the day.

Weirdly, they also are absolutely insanely paranoid about have a view of the cemetary from their appartment: I know me and my wife lived in one such (cheap as a consequence) flat, and her parents were quite mad. When we left, the owner was trying to sell it, but all couples would just stop at the view, pause, and nope as fast as possible :D

I'm trying to get a suicidee or murderee flat for cheap but my wife is absolutely against still.

I remember someone telling me that they put a mirror facing the window to reflect the [negative energy] away.

I find the idea very natural too, and there is precedent for this in Western tradition as well. In the times of ancient Rome, people would eat a meal with at their gravesite of a dead relative. This meal was called "refrigerium". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigerium

Interestingly enough, some necropoleis in those times were literal cities of the dead, made of structures with rooms where the dead were interred, and people could do the regrigerium in those "houses". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necropolis mentions this style of necropolis for the Etruscans, but it is my understanding Rome had these too at some point.

In Copenhagen, Denmark the municipality is actively encouraging recreational use of the cities cemeteries. As they write "The cemetery is also for the living". Everything else seems like a waste of space imo. Respect and leisure ain't orthogonal.

https://www.kk.dk/kirkegaarde

love that. yes some are making it out to be something disrespectful somehow. i also would prefer if cemeteries were converted to parks to be green spaces available to all.

spots in cemeteries are also usually only affordable for the propertied class too. for many in the working class they're not viable.

do our cities really need to reserve and block off sizable physical spaces for decades, when we have a housing crisis in most cities around the world? i am all for beautiful ceremonies and the like, but the use of excessive physical space in cities seems outdated.

consider also that we now have photos, video and other digital media to help us remember loved ones and keep them alive in our memory.

I have two enormous cemeteries on either side of my neighborhood. However where I live, just going for a walk there would be considered disrespectful. It's outdated in my opinion. Cemeteries are a terrible waste of space and horrible for the environment too. Like you said, go ahead and have a beautiful ceremony. I've told my wife to cremate me or turn me into one of those tree things that people are talking about now. I don't want to be covered in all the chemicals and be used to destroy the planet.

If you have an existing cemetery, at least convert it into a dual use space like the one in Boston with the fish ponds and maybe also put a playground up. There aren't nearly enough of those for parents of young children. Especially during a pandemic when you want to not cram 100 kids in a fairly small space.

Cremation also makes a significant carbon footprint, afaik. Best eco way to get rid of the body is to drop it to the sea floor.

I've heard that too. Running the furnace likely consumes a fair amount of electricity, but I think that's a non problem with high renewables. Just don't run during peak. Is the carbon footprint that bad from the conversation to ashes process? If so, yeah, maybe ocean is best.

I've heard we've made great advancements in human composting. Specifically composting combined with tree planting sounds like a great use of public spaces to rebuild some of our forest commons as opposed to traditional cemeteries.

"yes some are making it out to be something disrespectful somehow."

"Some" are probably ignorant of the fact that cemeteries have been routinely moved in Western societies for centuries. It's not a new thing, and there are cultural procedures for doing it respectfully. It is also in a different sense a tradition to argue about who is going to pay for those procedures since they aren't the cheapest, but that's a separate matter.

So, your question can be given a concrete answer: No, we aren't stuck with cemeteries forever in the place they were plopped down decades ago. That is a present reality, not something we have to aspire to.

I remember the scene in the TV show "How I met your mother" where one of the main characters, Marshall, goes to visit his dad's grave with a BBQ and some beers to watch a game(of football?) with his dad like they always used to. I thought it was extremely unusual but actually, kind of lovely.

Where I come from(Poland) cemetaries are almost sacred, instead of halloween we celebrate "wszystkich świętych"(all saints day) where everyone does the annual pilgrimage to the graves of their families to pay their respects. At the end of the night every cemetery is glowing with candles, all graves are adorned with flowers and other decorations it's all very solemn and sirious - I think the idea of a "picnic" at a cemetery would be seen as very disrespectful here - but it's still very interesting.

That sounds very similar to the Spanish Día de los Muertos.

I lived for 30 years in what you would call Spain and never heard about that.

It’s Mexican - although perhaps it’s observed by Mexicans living abroad as well?

I think the commenter just meant the name was in Spanish, though

I thought it extended beyond Mexico and existed in most Spanish-speaking/latin countries but this isn’t my culture so I’m much less familiar with the details.

In Spain we call it el día de todos los santos

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Saints%27_Day#Spain

Does it? I don't know much about the Day itself, but I know that there's a ton of commercial marketing around it coming from US companies, making it feel like the Day is some kind of party. I was startled by it at first, and then assumed maybe Mexicans prefer the observances to be joyful rather than solemn.

I'm from Poland, and it's like 'gambiting describes: the cemeteries are sacred, All Saints Day is a time of solemn observance, and no humor about this is culturally tolerated.

I live in a major city, we have some old cemeteries in which various local and national people of importance were buried, with corresponding monuments/artworks. When Ingress[0] launched, some points of interest were placed in those cemeteries. I remember a huge stink about this in the community, and a general agreement to pretend they don't exist, as people felt it's disrespectful to play on cemeteries.

[0] - The "AR" game by the company that later created Pokémon Go.

From my outsider perspective it’s a mix of somber and celebration. I don’t think that comes from commercialization as they’ve done massive parades forever in Latin countries.

Indeed, it's "All Souls' Day", November, 2nd: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Souls%27_Day

Not in Poland.

I think you are confusing "All Saints' Day" (November, 1st [1]) with "All Souls' Day" (November, 2nd [2]). In Italy as well, people will go to cemeteries on the 1st, because it's a bank holiday, but the celebrations if for the 2nd.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Saints%27_Day

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Souls%27_Day

Uhm.....not sure how I'm confusing the two? Can you explain please? In Poland "all saints day"(and I say "all saints" because that's literally what "wszystkich świętych" means) is definitely celebrated on the 1st of November, regardless of what day that is. Nothing is celebrated on the 2nd of November.

Edit:

In fact, in that Wiki article that you linked for "all saints day", click on "Polski" in the bottom left corner, and the Polish version of the same article does say it's celebrated in Poland on the 1st of November. "all souls day" doesn't exist here as a concept.

I see. From the other comments, I'd say at least in Spain it works like in Italy, and it is best described by the first sentences of the two Wikipedia articles:

All Saints' Day, also known as All Hallows' Day, Hallowmas, the Feast of All Saints, or Solemnity of All Saints, is a Christian solemnity celebrated in honour of all the saints of the church, whether they are known or unknown.

All Souls' Day, also known as the Commemoration of All the Faithful Departed and the Day of the Dead, is a day of prayer and remembrance for the souls of those who have died, which is observed by Latin Catholics and other Christian denominations annually on November 2.

That's interesting, across the border, in the Czech Republic, we also celebrate "dušičky" (meaning "souls") on the 2nd, and the same holiday even has a Polish name "zaduszki", which sounds really similar to our name, so I'd expect it to be a thing, because of the cultural similarities between the countries.

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaduszki

See also the Qingming Festival in Han-Chinese culture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qingming_Festival

I don't know if it's common, but I did this a couple of times at war memorial cemeteries in different parts of Kenya when I was younger. They can be some of the most accessible, well maintained, open green spaces in some areas.

In Norway it's a shift now, to use cemeteries more. It's a hot topic for some. Young people see it as the only green lungs left untouched in the cities, and want to use them. Some people feel it's disrespectful, others like that the areas get used.

I've had some lovely picnics in beautiful cemeteries in Germany, they're often walled, which dramatically reduces traffic noise, and resemble botanical gardens with their mixture of trees and flowering shrubs, in contrast to the "lawn with headstones" I'm familiar with in New Zealand.

They're real sanctuaries in busy cities.

Confirmed. In Berlin we have some really beautiful ones. If you want to read a book in a park in perfect quiet they’re the right place.

The one right behind the Berlin Wall memorial was one of the ones I had in mind, absolutely gorgeous.

If you're into that kind of stuff I'd recommend taking the train to Potsdam and visit the suedwestkirchhof (easily accessible by bus), it's especially nice in winter when it snows

We have one here in Geneva, Suisse (Cimetiere des rois, aka Cemetery of kings), used to work very close to it. Few majestic tombstones of rather important figures (I don't think kings per se, swiss don't have those), spread apart in lush greenery, walled from noise.

People go there sit on benches, eat their lunch and forget about hectic lives for a minute or two.

Nowadays it's mostly just goths, at least in the UK. Although Edinburgh has managed to turn its cemeteries into tourist attractions. Partly serious historical (Hume), partly morbid-fantastic (ghost tours), part Harry Potter. Plus the only US Civil War memorial outside the US, an incongruous statue of Lincoln overlooking the city from Calton Hill. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Calton_Burial_Ground#/medi...

Look out for the distinctive pink porphyry monuments; as a hard and acid-resistant stone, many of these are in perfect condition despite being a century or more old.

There is a cemetery near my house in London. Before I moved, I used to routinely go through it every day to get to the tube station on the other side.

There is also an hospital nearby and it was common, on sunny days, to see doctors and nurses having their lunch on the grass there.

Not many picknics going on anymore because they're cramped but we do have some cemeteries here in Sweden that see a lot of foot traffic. And at least one here in Malmö is by the water so people do regularly eat lunch on a bench near the canal with the tombstones behind them.

Well maintained it's just a park with tombstones and areas you don't step on out of respect.

Germany has peculiar relationships with cemeteries too. Treating a cemetery as a park to have a walk in is just normal. I have once seen a playground inside a cemetery, and a banner kindly asking not to use gravestones for climbing.

St Mary's Kew (West London) has a lovely small graveyard and overlooks the cricket ground. They also do great afternoon teas, and (respectful) consumption of tea and cakes in the graveyard (while watching the cricket) is welcome.

I'd be very happy for my grave to be there!

https://kcctrial.files.wordpress.com/2020/12/img_8303.jpg

Filipinos still do it! Usually during their version of Día de los Muertos (Day of the Dead) which we in the west call All Saints Day and they call Araw ng mga Yumao.

Pedantry: Día de los Muertos is All Souls Day, November 2, the day after All Saints.

Are you sure about that? My Mexican relatives celebrate it on November 1st.

People in Spanish-colonized countries routinely celebrate it November 1st-2nd.

Congressional Cemetery in Washington, DC, allow or used to allow people to pay a monthly or annual fee that gave them the right to bring their dogs into it. I gather from someone I worked with that the dogs would run off-leash and play as in a dog park. I'm sure that the expectation was that owners would clean up after their dogs, and I'm sure that my co-worker did/does.

I wish this was a thing again. I spent most of my childhood living at a cemetery (it was my dad's side job to mow the lawns, open and close the gates, keep the water running etc., and we lived in a house right at the gate) and I always felt like the place wasn't dead because of the people buried there, but because we made it that way. We transformed what was essentially a park with tombstones reminding us of our loved ones into a weird, ominous, liminal space.

Soon, it's Day of the Dead in Mexico.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_of_the_Dead

https://www.medicaldaily.com/dia-de-los-muertos-or-day-dead-...

Memento mori.

I've always thought that much of modern American(western?) culture is way too offput by graveyards. I've always like Heideggers thoughts on this subject.

> In a lecture in 1961, when he was asked how we might recover authenticity, Heidegger replied, in quite short fashion, that we should simply aim to spend more time in graveyards.

This is still common in Sweden, as cemiteries often surround churches and the beautiful parks around them.

Also very popular in Denmark, not uncommon to see groups of people socialize in cementaries. Also, cycle routes through the cementaries can be quite nice.

I had a cemetery close to where I lived in India. In the summer months, to get respite from the oppressive heat, people from a nearby slum would sleep on the graves at night. I was a kid at that time and would find this freaky cool!

I like it, sometimes, maybe, death could be a celebration of life?

In San Jose, this is common at the catholic cemeteries still

Why not pop-up restaurants or glamping in the graveyard? Spooky experience this Halloween anyone?

The cemetery in Oakland was so popular during the pandemic they had to close it down to public use.

We watch movies at them in LA

I don't believe in ghosts, but I imagine if they did exist they would be so happy to have people having a great time and watching movies nearby.

I recently went to a concert there! https://hollywoodforever.com/

I was expecting the concert to be held away from the graves, but no, there were tombstones directly behind the audience. It was a little unnerving.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com