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Comment by spullara | Hacker News Reader

This isn't a bad decision. They are literally adding more space on the screen that would normally be useless.

The new Dell XPS's managed to squeeze their camera/mic up above without needing a notch[0]. I'm guessing Apple had the ability to do so too but decided not to either because a.) they're planning on adding FaceID at some point in new models and/or b.) because they're trying to "unify" the design aestethics on macOS and iOS

[0] https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81FV+91am5L._AC_SL1500_....

Dell XPS webcams are generally really inferior to MacBook Pro webcams. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgFd_w2n1es&t=193s shows a good comparison between the M1 MacBook Pro from last year and the 13" Dell XPS. The difference is night and day, even though the M1 MacBook Pro has a 720p resolution. I imagine the difference is similar with the larger 1080p webcam on the new MacBook Pros that, as mentioned in the announcement, has a larger aperture to let in more light and a larger image sensor.

Very easy to squeeze a shitty camera wherever you feel like it. Maybe Dell should move the FN key to the left of the CTRL key instead so their keyboard was tenable.

The bad decision is not adding face id to the notch

Hey, I can agree with this and who knows if they aren't planning on doing it.

Maybe they are going to remove Face ID from iPhones instead, which would be a good decision?

I would like that but I assumed I was in the minority - have you heard thats planned?

I've never heard a rumor of anything approaching "Apple plans to get rid of Face ID". I don't see how it's possible, at least until fingerprint readers under the screen are 100% reliable, and even then. The only time I've seen people complaining about Face ID is when wearing masks (though pairing it with an Apple Watch fixes that).

> at least until fingerprint readers under the screen are 100% reliable

I am using a $200 Oppo with screen fingerprint reader, never had any issues.

Interesting! How fast is it?

Takes 1 second or maybe less than that. I have never thought about it because it just works.

I don't see Face ID ever fully going away, even if Touch ID returns as an option. The depth-sensing camera is used for other purposes, too, like Animojis.

Why would I want face id when I can just touch a key?

Not everyone has the same abilities

If one can’t use a keyboard, maybe the laptop form factor is not the right one to choose.

I'm not who you are replying to, but as someone with a condition that leads to dry, cracked skin on my fingertips, it's not that I can't use a keyboard, it's that fingerprint scanning doesn't work for me. Thankfully it's not the only way to unlock a MBP.

This is going to sound awfully like shilling. But I’m a large fan of the “unlock with Apple Watch” feature of the Mac; and I’ve tried to reverse engineer it for Linux.

Look into KDE Connect which has a similar feature. Not proximity based as far as I know, but it handles the hard part of unlocking the device.

My problem with it is it only works 75% of the time. Another 15% of the time it just hangs indefinitely. And 10% it just doesn't even try.

Because with Face ID the computer would be unlocked before your finger even reaches the key.

This makes me curious wether you have used a FaceID device or not. I remember saying the same thing but now I kind of “hate” using a TouchID device.

I'd take a touch sensor on the back of the phone like is common on android devices over face id any day of the week, by the time the phone is level with your face it's already opened.

Then you’d have to pick it up each time (or use PIN). FaceID works pretty well even when the phone is lying in front of you.

I also think that with FaceID my phone is generally unlocked when I pick it up as well.

Apparently you haven't been wearing facemasks for the last year like the rest of us...

I have, but I think I unlock my device at home/work/maskless 99 times for each 1 time I need to do it with a mask. And 99 times I do that, I am generally in a place where I can just pull down my mask safely for 1s. That last 1 time I am OK to use the PIN.

They cant fit FaceID within the thickness of the lid on MBP.

or using hole punch camera

pure speculation, but I reckon this is due to security concerns. the camera on a laptop is off by default, including when the laptop opens. i for one have always been a little concerned that most phones (android and ios) don't have a "camera on" indicator.

>"This isn't a bad decision."

Of course it's not a bad decision. It's idiotic decision. They literally added something to spoil what was needed. They could just fix their previous idiocy but no .. they had to add another one. Even the fact of it presence is annoying enough to avoid buying such model.

It is "uuugly" (with S.Jobs intonation) and that should be enough.

It's also invitation for more SW bugs and unnecessary complications. My Menubar is set to autohide and even that is not working properly because some windows from time to time stuck in a mode when they fail to extend themselves to occupy space where MenuBar was. They stuck in size FullScreenSize.Height-MenuBar.Height and you cannot change it unless you reboot the machine. It's obviously a bug. They cannot fix it for many OS versions already. Imagine adding to this bug another complication with notch ... Goodness.

Let's not forget that other idiots are going to copy it everywhere without too much thinking too.

"Ugly" argument should be enough. But there are more: How about mouse pointer. Should it be stuck once you reach this notch or it should pass through? Both ways it is idiotic. How about full screenshot - it will be with notch now? How about those apps that would fail to hide it? I am pretty sure you'll stuck with this status bar spoiling the whole picture here and there. How about multiple screens and complications with moving windows from one screen to another with keeping their size or complications with screeenshots when multiple screens are connected? What if you have a lot of menu items in your app? Some of them will be after the notch?

And all of this for what? To solve something that was already solved long time ago by "autohiding" MenuBar?

For my taste adding this absolutely useless "notch" is really idiotic decision . The very presence of this ugly notch is spoiling the feeling.

Even knowing that this device was made by people who find this idiotic notch aesthetically pleasing spoils everything because you know it's not the first idiocy and not the last idiocy you'll find there when you dig deeper. At least this is my expectation now. I was correct about ports, I was correct about keyboard, I was correct about idiocy of touch bar, lack of magsafe and I think I am not mistaken here too. They could've ask me, would save them a lot of redundant efforts in production. I use laptop to it's maximum and described my usage in details somewhere in comments. I really use laptop as laptop and I use each and every feature of it.

So you would rather have a thick bezel containing the camera, as before?

It's not useless, remember that full-screen is thing?

Think you misunderstood the parent comment. Full screen doesn't somehow add pixels into a bezel

Full screen doesn't extend to the sides of the camera on current laptops. All that's there is the bezel.

If somebody wrote a plugin that simply moved the menubar (and the maximum top of fullscreen apps) $height_of_notch pixels lower and drew nothing but black above it, would you be happy? Because that would give you parity with existing macbooks.

I would be incredibly happy with this but I'm not sure it is possible. I certainly hope so!

I read that hiding the notch with a black bar is actually a built-in feature they just briefly brushed on in the keynote.

Didn't they just say that it looked "really good in dark mode"?

I rewatched it and have to confirm what you wrote, unfortunately. It was just a rumor, sorry.

I can almost guarantee there's going to be something like this built into the OS.

No problem there. "Full" screen can just start below the notch. (Don't know if they'll do that, but they should.)

Not to mention, with the mini led display, letterboxing will be indistinguishable from the bezel.

Ah, the classic "glass is half full" discussion

Looking at the videos, that appears to be exactly what they did. That makes total sense for not breaking existing apps but now I'm curious whether developers can opt-in to use the space around the notch in full screen mode.

Yes - https://www.apple.com/v/macbook-pro/ac/images/overview/hero_...

If you’re curious, this just posted: the result full screen mode renders below the notch (which is still more pixels than the previous models) and developers can customize it to render in the rectangles they call auxiliary spaces.

https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guideline...

Now you get the same amount of window space without losing the menu bar.

There is a generous bezel remaining below the screen. They could simply shift the display downward and have the same size display in the exact same footprint without the notch. It's a purely aesthetic choice.

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