Poll: Do you find Humanity's lack of science-faith disturbing? | Hacker News Reader

Poll: Do you find Humanity's lack of science-faith disturbing?

1 pointtaxicabjesus13 comments

It was the best of times: Science™ delivered in record time a perfect vaccine for a newly-emerged super-virus. Millions promptly lined up to get protected from the super-virus. The go-alongs got their jabs as the months progressed not because they were worried about the super-virus, but to do their part in getting the government to let life get back to normal.

It was the worst of times: a vocal minority refuses to get vaccinated, and are successfully throwing their sabo [0] into the public health machine. Some of those who are In Rebellion Against Science™ consist of airline pilots, nuclear scientists, soldiers, police officers, teachers, doctors and other medical workers, people who've already recovered from COVID-19, protestors against 'vaccine passports', etc.

I proudly count myself among the vocal minority. I suspect I have an auto-immune condition already, think the jab could possibly finish me off, and have obtained the anti-serotonin drug cyproheptadine in case I happen to catch SARS-CoV-2.

Got myself another -4 HN comment recently by trying and failing to preach my own understanding of settled science. I noticed a single upvote before a brigade of Dark Helmet Downvoters [1] arrived.

Decades ago scientists figured out that excess oxygen is toxic & invasive ventilation harms lungs [2]. There is a simple antidote for oxygen toxicity. While ventilators are sometimes useful, they are known to not help with pneumonia. There would've been no need to worry about SARS-CoV-2 if Medicine™ hadn't forgotten best practices for patients whose oxygen levels are low.

I am submitting this as a Poll so the silent minority can anonymously share what they really think, without risking getting downvoted.

[0] Sabo/Sabotage & Star Trek VI - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKLIivrA3g0

[1] Space Balls reference - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8XddGIaLaU

[2] The Folly of Medical Hyperventilation - https://www.taxiwars.org/2021/06/folly-medical-hyperventilation.html

> science-faith

In God we trust; all others must bring data.

> cyproheptadine

Never heard about it. I only remember that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dexamethasone#COVID%E2%80%9119 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molnupiravir#COVID-19_clinical... had good enough clinical trials. IANAMD

> COVID-22

I understand it's a joke, but I don't expect a new epidemic from a new coronavirus until ~2030 (SARS was like 20 years ago, and MERS like 10 years ago). Hopefully the new variants of COVID-19 will get milder to fly under the radar, like other covirus.

> Modern Doctors basically know what they're doing and should be fully trusted to make good decisions for their patients.

Moderns doctors know a lot of things and in most cases can give the best known recommendation, but for some important cases it's best to have a second and even a third opinion. Also, some MD are better than other, like the x10 programmers, other MD are morons with a whitecoat.

Farid Jalali is a gastrointestinal doctor who was an early advocate of cyproheptadine for COVID-19. His tweet-threads about why the SSRI Fluvoxamine and anti-serotonin drugs are helpful to treat COVID-19 are very informative:

https://twitter.com/farid__jalali/status/1350149862457630720 https://twitter.com/farid__jalali/status/1392559708079333379

Dr. Jalali said at some point that the anti-viral drug Remdesivir is basically worthless for COVID-19. Molnupiravir gets headlines, but I think it's a money-grab, as no one will pay to study repurposed approved generic drugs like cyproheptadine and fluvoxamine.

(Dr. Jalali blocked me after I said something about ventilation imploding lungs, but that is literally what happens, via "nitrogen washout", as mentioned in my blog post.)

It looks like an interesting idea, but my level of biology is not good enough to be sure. There are many things that look like good ideas on paper, but have no clinical effect. For example, as you say Remdesivir is not useful against covid-19, IIRC.

I remember a few clinical studies of the use of fluvoxamine against covid-19, so it's possible to study these drugs. For example see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28220574 (I'm not convinced, in particular because they use the number of hospitalizations instead of the number of death.)

The only scientific faith is believing in the ignorance of experts. Science works because it makes it harder to fool ourselves; by having multiple models that make different predictions, we can decide between them.

People who think Science can make policy decisions are using the word incorrectly.

Science doesn't make policy decisions, but the scientific method is a way for wildly varying humans to try to agree on a common reality.

Once you have a method that allows you to agree with others on a common reality that everyone is free to observe (if they have the patience), then you have the necessary foundation for policy.

For example, if you don't understand the scientific method well enough to believe that Covid exists, you probably aren't going to like my policies for mitigating it.

> For example, if you don't understand the scientific method well enough to believe that Covid exists,

Lots of people are completely immune to the SARS-CoV-2: they're exposed to the virus, but their bodies shut down replication without even having to mount an immune response. Adequate Vitamin D is one factor that's gotten a wee little bit of coverage.

> you probably aren't going to like my policies for mitigating it.

Many Italians don't like their government's policies for mitigation: https://boriquagato.substack.com/p/protest-in-trieste-we-the...

This whole thing seems like flamebait rather than a sincere attempt at curious discussion.

Why do you care so much about your HN downvotes? Why did a few downvotes turn into this screed? Isn't there a better venue for this, or maybe just someone in real life you can vent to?

> This whole thing seems like flamebait rather than a sincere attempt at curious discussion.

It's supposed to be lighthearted, though I suppose the downvoters I refer to as "Dark Helmets" won't appreciate the reference. I personally am judicious in my downvotes, while the Dark Helmets seem to vote down anything they don't agree with.

Besides COVID-19, there's a lot of group-think on other science topics that might not be right. We're human, it's what we do.

> Why do you care so much about your HN downvotes?

The 1% rule is such that only a small percentage of a forum's users comment [0]. I myself tend to comment only if I'm relatively early AND I have something unique to say that probably couldn't be said by someone else.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22623162

If I cared about downvotes I wouldn't post comments that I believed were likely/certain to elicit downvotes.

AFAIK, there's no way to tell if your downvoted comment was appreciated by some. I posted against another variant of science-faith recently, where I told one of my most favorite taxi driver stories that was highly relevant. I watched that comment's score carefully, and noticed it oscillating up and down. That comment finally ended up with a negative score. I wouldn't have noticed the oscillations if I'd only come back to look at the final score ~48 hours later.

> Why did a few downvotes turn into this screed?

This wasn't my first downvoted comment that challenged the conventional wisdom. I think there are plenty who agree, they just don't comment here.

> Isn't there a better venue for this, or maybe just someone in real life you can vent to?

Another purpose of this poll is to get people to consider whether it's actually settled science that oxygen is highly toxic when used in excess, that ventilation has been studied for pnemonia and found to not help, and that there's a simple antidote for oxygen toxicity that would completely change how 100% of the severe COVID-19 patients are treated, if only Medicine™ hadn't forgotten.

> "consist of airline pilots"

Note the lack of citations. Presumably referring to Southwest Airlines, which anti-vax kooks claimed was in support of their views.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/southwest-flight-cancellat... "No Evidence Southwest Pilots Called Out Due to COVID-19 Vaccine Requirement" - "In early October 2021, a false claim spread on social media that Southwest Airlines canceled a large number of flights due to flight personnel calling out sick in protest of COVID-19 vaccine mandates. The rumor was spread in part by elected leaders like U.S. Sen. Ted Cruz, R-Texas. Linked in Cruz’s tweet above is an Oct. 10, 2021, CNBC article reporting Southwest stated it canceled 1,800 flights due to bad weather and air traffic control issues."

> police officers

That's true. And they are dying at a higher rate than if they had gotten vaccinated. "COVID is the #1 killer of LEOs in 2020 and 2021" - https://www.odmp.org/ .

> Note the lack of citations. Presumably referring to Southwest Airlines

Delta gave in to the Freedom Fighters: https://mustreadalaska.com/delta-variant-airline-goes-its-ow...

> > police officers

> That's true. And they are dying at a higher rate than if they had gotten vaccinated. "COVID is the #1 killer of LEOs in 2020 and 2021" - https://www.odmp.org/ .

I know one of those LEO who died "from COVID". I think he probably would have survived if he hadn't been ventilated. This is my referenced -4 comment about him: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28890791

Your source says nothing about "give in".

Your source does not specifically mention airline pilots as having any impact.

Your source does mention "any employee not fully vaccinated will need to take a Covid test weekly, as long as community case rates are high, and beginning in November, unvaccinated employees in the company’s healthcare plan will be subject to a $200 monthly surcharge because the average hospital stay for Covid-19 has cost the company $50,000 per person" - hardly some sort of complete capitulation or rejection of "vaccine passports."

That was just the top of the links when I searched. I think the important point about Delta pilots is they won't have to join Southwest and American Airlines' pilot rebellions against forced medical treatments from which they believe they will receive no benefit.

Some people don't like Mr. Berenson, but I think he's consistent:

> [...] The pilots I’ve heard from don’t want [systemwide flight cancellations] - they didn’t become pilots NOT to fly. But they also recognize they are speaking for tens of millions of working Americans who are furious with the choice the Biden Administration is forcing on them: your right to make medical decisions for yourself, or your job.

> So what happens next? The answer may come down to a delicate dance between the airlines - especially Southwest and American - and their employees. If the airlines signal that anyone who wants an exemption can get one, they may keep the anger to manageable levels.

https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/the-not-so-friendly-skie...

Edit: Can't respond to the comment below. Don't care about Snopes, I think they mostly peddle whatever the consensus happens to be, even when provably wrong. Berenson's substack seems to support that there is a silent rebelion amongst airline pilots.

See also: URGENT: A Southwest Airlines pilot explains why you will not hear anything about vaccine mandates from his union - and why Southwest has more flexibility than it admits to stand up to the White House - https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/urgent-a-southwest-airli...

> to join Southwest ... pilot rebellions

There was no "pilot rebellion" at SWA. I provide a link to Snopes.

Don't trust Snopes?

Here's SWA's press release: "On Friday evening, the airline ended the day with numerous cancellations, primarily created by weather and other external constraints, which left aircraft and Crews out of pre-planned positions to operate our schedule on Saturday. ... As a note, the operational challenges were not a result of Southwest Employee demonstrations." - from https://www.swamedia.com/releases/release-66d1c9ae7fd4aa2df0...

Don't trust corporate media or SWA management?

Here's the pilot union: "Southwest pilots' union president blames airline for cancellations ... When asked by CBS News if there was any chance the disruption could have been caused by pilots calling out sick over the company's vaccine mandate, Capt. Casey Murray, president of the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association, said that was not the case and that the airline's pilot sick rate for this weekend was "right in line with what was occurring this summer." - from https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/southwest-pilots-u... .

Still don't trust corporate media?

Go to the union's web site, at https://www.swapa.org/ , and follow the link under "SWAPA Twitter" to https://eu.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2021/10/16/sout...

] Recently, a national news narrative arose falsely implying that Southwest Airlines pilots walked out on their passengers, forcing them to cancel important family plans and leaving them stranded all over the country. And the untrue rumors indicated that pilots did this over a protest from the airline’s vaccine mandate policy.

] As a Southwest Airlines pilot myself, I can tell you the truth. And the truth is, Southwest Airlines pilots did not cause our airline’s recent operational problems, and the data definitively shows this.

] To have a walkout, you must have a significant increase in pilots failing to show up to work. But the reality is, that data doesn’t exist. There has not been a dramatic spike in pilot sick call rates anywhere in the month of October. What actually happened was Southwest Airlines pilots and flight attendants were stranded away from their homes and families, right alongside our passengers. Much like our passengers, many of our crews were unable to find hotel rooms. That only exacerbated Southwest’s problems as numerous pilots were not legally permitted to fly due to a lack of rest before getting behind the controls of an airliner.

Quite pedaling your falsehoods.

If you can't fact check something as simple as this - even after I linked you to the Snopes page - why should anyone trust you with something more complex?

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