Intel Shows Off Multi-Chiplet Sapphire Rapids CPU with HBM
tomshardware.com
tomshardware.com
What is the benefit of this for a desktop processor? I understand for mobile devices that have to conserve battery, but Intel is also making a desktop version with 8 of each core type. Most modern CPUs have the ability to turn off all but one core and throttle clock speeds way down when idle already.
That means that a Gracemont thread is supposed to have about the same throughput as a SMT thread on a big core.
Therefore an 8+8 cores Alder Lake with 24 hybrid threads should have about the same MT performance with a CPU having 12 big cores with 24 SMT threads, while having the area and the power consumption of only 10 big cores.
So Alder Lake is expected to have a similar MT performance with the 12-core Ryzen 9 5900X, while having a much better ST performance.
Of course that remains to be seen.
Early next year AMD should counter with Zen 3+ CPUs having a much larger cache memory and probably a little higher clock frequency. Those will probably have much better MT performance than Alder Lake, but Alder Lake should retain the best ST performance until Zen 4, late next year.
There's a lot of talk about "background tasks" that do light, but necessary processing in asymmetric multicore setups like this; for example on macOS Spotlight performs background indexing continuously, this is a great fit for a "small core" like in the M1. There's no amount of idle clocking you can do to match the perf-per-watt here. Similarly, there is also talk of "dark silicon" and "increasing heterogenous systems", like hybrid designs. But these are all the same problem, really: modern designs are not about having the most powerful components, but the correct blend of components to maximize the work-per-watt you can achieve. You can't just throw "more transistors" at every single design anymore and get free wins on all fronts 1 year later when transistors shrink.
Apple’s had a much shorter fuse. They really needed that $150MM from MS (who needed Apple to fend off antitrust). Talking to ppl in Intel that sense of urgency hasn’t made it through the organization (and why should it? There are tons of other jobs around). But they could pull it off.
The momentum is what allows you to avoid the (mythical?) “Osborne effect”: the only thing Intel can brag about is the future; today’s products will still be bought by a lot of people and so hopefully that will stem some of the design losses.
MS was able to do the same thing (though their situation was far from dire). Motorola and HP couldn’t.
"Shorter fuse" is a great understatement. Intel's situation in 2021 is not even remotely comparable to Apple in 1997, except in the abstract. Apple was months away from bankruptcy, losing money every quarter, and had <5% market share. Intel has >50% market share in some markets, is extremely profitable (24 billion last year), and has enough cash in the bank to ride this out for years.
Apple had to execute near perfectly immediately when SJ came back. Intel could make the right strategic decision a year from now and turn things around. Or it could probably make the right decisions two years from now and still be fine.
Sure, they will exist and refuse to die, but will they be a significant part of the future? I’m not optimistic.
They're in decline because their product development pipeline for CPUs depends on their fabrication pipeline, and their fab pipeline was stalled for several years. It seems like the fab pipeline has been unblocked, maybe, as Intel 10nm products are starting to appear in bigger numbers. We'll see if that unblocks their CPU pipeline in the next year or two, I guess.
Aren't AMD CPUs more or less drop-in replacements for Intel though, as far as software compatibility goes? Yes, you need a new motherboard. But you probably need one even if you stay on Intel.
But... between mindshare, supply constraints, and OEMs being slow to make compelling products with AMD, it takes a long time to switch large numbers from Intel to AMD.
With AMD laptops, you'll struggle to find the ideal combination of display (resolution, quality, brightness), ports (Thunderbolt) and other attributes. They only got high-end discrete GPUs and 4K screens this year. And often not in the same machine. Thunderbolt is technically available for AMD platforms now, but still exceedingly rare.
For desktop, yes... I switched to AMD fifteen years ago and I haven't looked back. That's as someone who builds their own.
In the consumer space (outside DIY), desktops are like laptops. You need to find OEMs putting things together in the right configuration. Not to mention selling them at your local Best Buy for a mainstream consumer to come across it and pick it up. And not turn away because it's missing the "Intel Inside" sticker seared into their brain from decades of marketing.
I think AMD is mostly a consumer brand and consumers aren’t buying a lot of PCs these days (except for a small transient due to Covid).
Not that is matter much because both Intel and AMD was constrained by capacity.
It reminds me a lot of the last days of Netburst, with heroic hacks like huge (for the time) caches, high clock speeds, and then bumping up against TDP limits.
High clock speeds are an architectural constraint driven by the market.
Intel and AMD can't sell chips that don't clock high in laptops and desktops and they can't afford to specialize much for mid-clocked server chips, so they need a design that can at least approach 5GHz for boost clocks. Instructions per Clock matters too, but the market would have a hard time buying an x86 chip that stopped at 3 GHz, even if it was double the IPC.
That means they can't make a super-wide processor like Apple that tops out around 3 GHz, where Apple is more comfortable providing sufficient cooling.
AMD's response to the later-life Pentium 4's was the Athlon 64, which was clocked substantially lower but matched or beat the P4 in most tasks. The market responded positively.
Similarly, the original Pentium was clocked substantially lower than high end 486 models when it was first introduced. It was also received positively.
In modern times, the market has responded positively to the Apple M1.
Has there actually been a CPU anywhere that has outperformed its market competitor (in price and performance), but failed to gain traction because its clock speed was too low? "The market wants high clock speeds" has been a common assumption, but I've never actually seen it work out that way in practice.
Still not as wide as the M1, but it looks like a huge step in the right direction on paper.
The proportion of potential users priced out of owning a Mac vs. a PC is much lower than Ferrari vs. Kia
What I mean to say is - customer base for Mac vs. PC overlap alot and aren’t distinct as you seem to be alluding to.
From anecdotal experience one big reason was always:
‘You can get the same specs in a Windows PC for 1/2 the price !!’
Now with M1 - you can’t get comparable specs/performance in a Windows PC.
Also - in the past few months I’ve seen M1 MacBook Airs at very competitive price points. There are actually cases where you get better performance at a lower price point compared to a Windows PC.
I do think the M1 / ARM pivot has been a game changer. Market share in the last 12 months seems to be on the up.
That was never really the argument. Even in the heyday of the PowerMac, you could get one for $2000 and it was competitive with a $2000 PC. But $500 PCs existed and were 75% as fast, whereas $500 PowerMacs did not. And then that's what everybody bought because for most people, the last 25% of the performance isn't worth four times the money.
It's the same reason $50 Android phones have higher sales volumes than $1000 iPhones. For sure the iPhone is faster, but is it $950 faster? For most people the answer is no.
They don't want to be the computer people take for groceries, rather the one that drives slowly in the main avenue making everyone aware of their presence.
I am lucky to live in Europe, in a country where most people probably wouldn't think twice about buying anything Apple.
There are plenty of the countries out there where people aren't as fortunate, most devs would be more than happy to have any kind of computer to actually work on, and that computer won't be an Apple one with a very high degree of probability.
When your path to a better life is coding via a feature phone, whatever M1 is capable of is meaningless.
https://www.hanselminutes.com/615/developing-on-not-for-a-no...
1000$/€ MBA is in the same price category with similarly-performing machines. I mean, I doubt you can work as a developer without being able to run a load of tools at the same time. That phone guy example is an exception.
Even here in Europe, many contractors get a Windows laptop with 8 GB and a 128 HDD (yes HDD) from customer's IT with the respective tooling required for the project.
Cost-of-ownership for Apple products is usually pretty great anyway; often they're the $500 vs $50 boots.
Around 50% of Windows PC are Cooperate Business PC. Those are not Apple's target customer.
But Apple is still gaining ground on the so called 90% market. And ARM M1 Chip already allow them to compete at a much more favourable price point. You see higher discount rate on M1 based Mac, and better Education Discount on M1 MacBook Air, along with SKUs hitting $799.
They have plenty of margin to play with and get an official MacBook down to $799 within the next 3 years.
They may never out sell PC in unit volume, but they still have plenty of room to grow. In an optimistic projection I would not be surprised if Apple double their Mac active user by 2031.
Intel put itself in the same playing field by slapping their “Intel inside” stickers on every goddamn laptop that has their CPU.
Apple is entirely not represented on the AMD and Intel key playing field, datacenter-grade chips. OTOH it's very much present (and more with M1) in the Qualcomm and Samsung playing field, ARM-based mobile chips, from which AMD and Intel are both absent.
However, for absolute performance values, the desktop Intel and AMD CPUs remain faster than even M1 Max, both in single-thread and in multi-thread tasks.
M1 Max should be able to match the best laptop CPUs in some tasks and be faster in the tasks that are limited by the memory bandwidth.
On the other hand, when the laptop Alder Lake CPUs will be introduced in Q1 2022, they should be much faster in ST than M1 Max or M1 Pro, but while consuming a much higher power.
To call that "lapping" seems a bit overly extreme.
Also this article is about server CPUs, so I don't know why the M1 is being mentioned at all. It would get humiliated in a server environment by existing Xeons & Epyc CPUs, to say nothing of what Intel is demoing here.