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Comment by seibelj | Hacker News Reader

No one possibly thinks women and men are physically equal, right? This is why we have separate women and men sports.

> separate women and men sports

Most professional sports I know of (in the US) technically don't have separate men leagues. There are women only leagues, and leagues open to anyone. There is no rule preventing women from playing in the NFL, NHL or MLB. But in practice if you don't enforce a minimum % of women players like I've seen in some amateur mixed leagues, it makes them men only.

The Olympics does split into men-only and women-only, I think.

Maybe a tiny minority do, but it isn't so much about the physicality and genes, but treatment and identification. Someone who's a man or woman in 99% of all contexts (except biology) think Sports, which is a human construct, is discriminatory, and as all human constructs, can be re-invented and changed.

Hey, not taking sides here, just saying it's not as simple as reducing to people who think women and men (or female and male) are actually the same.

But if it helps taking sides, from our current way of doing most competitive sports, it makes sense to split into male and female (biologically speaking, at birth) and transgenders shouldn't compete on the other side.

My understanding is that in most sports there’s an “open” division where everyone can compete - though that means in practice men dominate. The “women” division is then created as a way towards better representation. It’s a progressive policy, not discrimination. If we get rid of the women’s division we’ll be left with men-only sports.

blank slate supporters really believe it's all environmental, any difference between individuals is environmental and we just need to change things until everybody is equal

A number of trans rights activists (TRAs) are trying to erase the concept of 'sex' entirely, including sex-based differences. Although this seems absurd on its face, TRAs came to this point in the debate gradually: initially there was a focus on making the claim that gender is short for 'gender identity', which is in their view entirely unrelated to biological sex. This seemed agreeable to a broad audience, but committed TRAs then started looking to erode the sex-based separation seen in spaces such as bathrooms, sports, and more. The Biden administration took this further by redefining the word 'sex' when it comes to official law and policy (example: https://www.nationalreview.com/news/biden-hhs-redefines-sex-...). Now TRAs are pushing for drivers licenses and birth certificates to allow self-identified information in the 'sex' field. Doctors and activists in the medical world are ceasing to use words like 'mother' and instead are using terms like 'birthing person' or 'uterus owner'. Sex-based sexual orientation (like 'lesbian') is being replaced as activists push for redefining it in terms of gender identity. These days, even pointing out that the word "woman" is defined as "adult human female", where "female" is defined biologically, is deemed "hate speech" by TRAs on Twitter.

For sports specifically, it is worth listening to this Megyn Kelly podcast episode where she speaks to two girls affected by this issue in high school sports, as well as two sports biology researchers - one of whom is trans - discussing sex-based differences in sports: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-trans-athletes-deb...

In depth, balanced discussions around this issue are also difficult to come by because of censorship and vitriol. A good listen on this facet of the issue is this interview of journalist Abigail Shrier, whose recent book drew the ire of TRAs: https://www.honestlypod.com/podcast/episode/3054d6c7/courage...

Great summary of the situation. I wonder how long things will continue in the direction they've been going, and when things will begin rolling back in the other direction

It's hard to say. For me it is fascinating to look on the dynamics of activism and politics from the sidelines and try to connect the dots across locations and with history. In the US it is difficult to openly discuss this topic because of social media censorship, risk to social/professional status, and so on. But the stances pushed by progressive TRAs in the US are also very new and highly radical. There are other perspectives that grant trans people recognition and basic civil liberties but do so differently. For example, older cultures that recognized additional genders for much longer have treated them as a third category rather than a spectrum of infinite choices (which seems more like personality) and without the concept of gender fluidity (where your gender can change day to day). Countries in Asia and Africa typically do not accept the US-progressive perspective of trans issues or are hostile towards it entirely. European nations have a healthier (but still emotional) debate on this topic than the US, as it seems more psychologically safe and socially acceptable to express your ideas there. China seems to be enacting a strong social-shaping agenda in favor of traditional (biological) gender and sex. And so on.

The only thing I have certainty about is that the people who seek to shut down others, or censor debate, or get people fired, or distort/lie are on the wrong side of things. There are large numbers of people who engage in these illiberal actions on all sides of this debate.

Oh there is definitely a large group of people pushing this mistaken belief. When you hold the belief that there are no genders then logically there can be no women's sports and you cannot hold the idea that there are physical/mental differences between men or women without some for of cognitive dissonance.

The media and many others are backing transgender men entering multiple women's sports like it's not a problem. They're even ok with it happening in MMA and it's terrifying. You're going to have woman killed with this sort of stuff.

https://nypost.com/2021/09/11/transgender-fighter-alana-mcla...

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