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> Employment should always be mutual benefit deal, and just like a company would let you go if employing you isn't beneficial anymore you should leave without too much hesitation if its for your own benefit.

This is a good recommendation overall. Loyalty to a company is foolish, because the company has no loyalty to you.

For better or (probably) for worse, the mutual benefit/harm is ridiculously asymmetric in employment relationships, and there are also externalities.

The human dimensions of laying employees off mean that you are simultaneously destroying their livelihood, dissolving most of their day-to-day friendships, and lowering their social status to the near-bottom rung of "unemployed."

On the other hand, when an employee leaves a (large) company it usually has minimal effect on the company in terms of survival prospects, social relationships, or status – and the company isn't a person anyway.

There is also a third party involved - coworkers. They may suffer when an employee leaves (though rarely they benefit) but it's an externality to the employer-employee contract. I expect some people may hesitate to leave because they know it will harm the people they currently work with.

> Loyalty to a company is foolish, because the company has no loyalty to you.

Note, this is not necessarily true. For example, Japan's conglomerates are largely based on long-term loyalty.

I don't remember which business book it was -- one of those MBA type studies of successful businesses -- but one of the key take-a-ways that always stuck with me was that the most successful companies are the ones that are loyal to their employees, and have earned that loyalty. If any employee believes you'll have their back for the rest of their careers, then they'll act very differently, then if an employee feels that their job is just a "job", even if it is a good one.

It used to be true in US tech as well — you started with IBM, and you died in IBM. Loyalty was mutual — though in the end, everyone will still work towards their own self-interests… and a companies’ path to self-interest is much more far-reaching and callously achieved than you could ever hope to achieve.

It’s only with Silicon Valley did tech go so heavy with job-hopping — 2 year terms being the norm. And with the lack of loyalty to the company, so it goes back unto the employee (e.g. training a resource is a futile endeavor — he’ll probably leave once trained.. so look instead to make him useful, and if he learns, it’s incidental).

Which furthers the weird pseudo-credentialism we see today (where credentials are required for everything, but everyone assumes you still don’t actually know the subject) — if you can’t know someone’s skill set by working with them, and you don’t know them by reference… credentials are the next best thing — even if they’re not much.

> And with the lack of loyalty to the company, so it goes back unto the employee (e.g. training a resource is a futile endeavor — he’ll probably leave once trained.. so look instead to make him useful, and if he learns, it’s incidental).

This really, really hurts juniors. Recently, a colleague left because they hadn't promoted him to match what his responsibilities are. He got a 50% pay raise and the company is investing loads of scarce time into training his replacement. It makes so little sense to me that they wouldn't just match his salary (which they're doing for his replacement!) and avoid all the training costs.

There must be some kind of thing I'm missing here, because it makes no sense to me.

> Loyalty to a company is foolish, because the company has no loyalty to you.

In an employment context, all loyalty is foolish - if you take it too far.

In one of my earliest engineer posts, I had an excellent manager - an engineer himself, we got on really well, I got promoted, and I was given good work. He got promoted too, and I moved up with him. I flatter myself that I was a part of his success.

Couple of years later, there was a re-organisation, he got moved to Head Office ten miles away, and I never heard from him again. My new boss was a likeable but dull fellow.

My opinion: you should be loyal to your employer. It's not OK to badmouth your boss behind his back. It's not OK to scheme with your employer's competitors. Unless your boss is crap, you should have his back. You should do your best to achieve your employer's goals.

But you shouldn't confuse loyalty to your employer to (e.g.) loyalty to family members, friends, spouses and so on. Employment is business, and in business, money talks. I resented my boss for leaving me behind; but that was because I had confused employer loyalty with family-type loyalty. Of course, when he got the big promotion to Head Office, he was going to take it. He didn't owe me anything - I hadn't done him any special favours, I was just an employee like him.

People get betrayed by spouses, girlfriends and family-members all the time. It's shit, partly because people don't expect relationships of that kind to be transactional. Sometimes we misjudge people, sometimes things just don't work out.

But employment relationships are always transactional. There is always a price for which your employer will sell you out. Whatever the employer says, paid staff are not family. It's not reasonable to expect an employer to show you the same loyalty as a friend or family-member.

It took me the greater part of a career (and two divorces!) to learn this.

You sound like a great boss.

I had a few terrible bosses as an example of what not to do.

Honestly, I wasn't really happy with the guy performance. I do need him now, but if he wouldn't be quitting I probably would let him go, sooner or later, when I found someone with better attitude and skills. I would feel terrible with myself if I he would pass an opportunity being loyal to the company only to be shown the door few months after. I prefer to work with happy people who want to work where they do, and to achieve these you have to take care of your employees.

> I had a few terrible bosses as an example of what not to do

For this reason, I think the best leaders come from below.

> I told him that I would be very happy if he stay

But,

> Honestly, I wasn't really happy with the guy performance.

Honestly, I feel like this is the neuroses most companies operate under. They want you there, unless they find someone just slightly better. Then they'll immediately show you the door. Kids, this is a prime example why you should show absolutely no loyalty. If there is a better offer on deck absolutely take it. The guilt washes away once you turn in your access card.

Eh this thinking is way too one-sided. Assume your boss is right and your performance is not as good as what would be expected of someone earning your salary... you might manage to jump ship to another company earning more money but that does not mean you will be able to keep your higher paying job for a particularly long time.

If there is a better offer on deck, and you know your skillset well enough to really know that you're worth it, then absolutely go for it. But if there's a better offer on deck and you have performance issues, then you may be trading in long term benefit for a short term benefit and substantially increasing your risk.

It's not as simple as you're making it seem, where an offer for more money comes up and you should just jump on it as if the only factor to consider is guilt.

Did you let him know his performance was not good?

I'm always paranoid that my bosses think that way and hate to think they might be unhappy but not saying anything.

It's worth asking. They might tell you a white lie, but most bosses are willing to discuss the things that they like and don't like about your performance.

You hiring man??

> when I found someone with better attitude and skills.

With the same price tag or a better deal, I presume.

It's so important to teach juniors, in any field, that it's just business. Dealing with problems like short staffing is why the company employs managers. Only assholes are personally offended when someone jumps ship for a raise (or any other reason). There are def assholes out there, but thankfully they aren't the majority in my experience.

> that it's just business

The really sad thing is that I've found myself teaching this to people who have been in industry for 30+ years. People are really good at coming up with justifications for why they shouldn't just quit.

> it's just business

Hear hear! I am not a hiring manager any more, but when I was, I wanted every developer to feel free to find the best spot for them. I was hoping it would be working for me, but sometimes it wasn't. If they realized it first, they left. If I realized it first, I worked with them to try to correct the issues, but sometimes they needed to go. (Having been on both sides of this situation, please make sure you treat everyone with as much compassion as humanly and legally possible.)

> Dealing with problems like short staffing is why the company employs managers.

Agreed. It isn't your job, as an employee, to be worried about how your job responsibilities will be taken care of when you are gone. Do a good job when you are there, give your two weeks (or whatever is customary) and move on. The honest truth is, either the job will get taken over by someone else or it wasn't as important as you thought. I've never had a company call me in 6 months and say "we need you to come back now, the ship is falling apart". Nor, before you impugn my abilities :) , have I ever seen that happen for anyone in my two decades.

Sometimes I think because the work we (software devs) do is so esoteric and can be disconnected from people, we trick ourselves into thinking it is critical work and requires us to pour our whole lives into it.

Screw that. That level of commitment is for founders.

Do an honest day's work for an honest wage.

When I told my boss I was going back to school to support a career change his response was “smart fucking move”.

As a manager always put your people before the company. That’s what good managers do.

The fact that you were good to him, and he probably enjoyed his job, makes it a difficult decision. Make more money and take in the unknown, it stay where it feels warm and fuzzy.

Just dropping you a line to say that you sound like a good man.